Andrew Friedman | Chef Interviews, Critical Writings, and Crafting The Dish - EP 156
Episode Notes
My guest today is Andrew Friedman, an acclaimed author, food writer, and host of the podcast Andrew Talks to Chefs. For more than ten years, Friedman has collaborated with many of the nation's best and most revered chefs on cookbooks and other writing projects. His writing career began in 1997, when Alfred Portale, asked him to collaborate on the Gotham Bar and Grill Cookbook. He has since worked as a cookbook collaborator on more than twenty projects, including Knives at Dawn cataloging the Bocuse D’or, as well as Chefs drugs and rock and roll, which he gets very vulnerable about in this conversation, as well as helping a number of the nation's best chefs (Alfred Portale, David Waltuck, Tom Valenti, and more share their unique culinary viewpoints with readers. He’s got a new book coming out soon!
Andrew Friedman, IG: https://www.instagram.com/toquelandandrew/
Andrew Talks to Chefs: https://andrewtalkstochefs.com/
Andrew's Book List: https://www.amazon.com/Andrew-Friedman/e/B001IQXAIO
Andrew's PreOrder for The Dish: https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-dish-andrew-friedman?variant=40855832657954
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[00:00:00]
What is up folks? My guest today is Andrew Friedman and acclaimed author, food writer and host of the podcast. Andrew talks to chefs. I met Andrew through his podcast, reading his writings over the years and just having a successful career, being super connected with all of these big massive names in the restaurant chef kind of ecosystem.
And we connected a few months ago on all things media and production and having a podcast where we talked to other hospitality pros.
For more than 10 years, Andrew has collaborated with many of the nation's biggest and most revered chefs on cookbooks and other writing projects. His writing career began in 1997 when Alfred Port Ashkin collaborate on the Gotham Bar and Grill cookbook. He has since worked as a cookbook collaborator on more than 20 projects, including Knives at Dawn,
cataloging the Boku store as well as chefs, drugs, and rock and roll, which he gets very vulnerable about. In this conversation. I wasn't expecting that,
as well as helping a number of the nation's best chefs share their culinary viewpoints with readers.
He does have a new book coming out soon, which unfortunately he had to keep pretty close to the chest in this conversation. But if you folks enjoyed this one, I would love to have Andrew back on the show because we didn't nearly cover my massive list of questions that I had for him in the time that we had together.
If at any point you'd like to pause and check out Andrew online or any of the specific linkable things we discussed, please do check out the show notes, which are always available in the description of this podcast. But before we talk to Andrew, I wanna give a quick business shout out as well as a sentimental shoutout to JB Prince.
As many of you folks probably remember, we talked to Tim Musig, the CEO of the Chef Focused Gear Company, a few episodes back. And since then, Tim has made the showroom available to the Repertoire podcast to shoot in. And so to say the obvious if you're in the market for my favorite tweezers, [00:02:00] silicone molds, knives, perforated spoons, matte furs, bench scrapers, piping tips, carbon steel pans, you name it, JB Print has it.
And JB Print also supports this show, and I would love for you to support them. Links are in the description of. To shop JB Prince and with that business bit outta the way, this is probably the first time I'm gonna talk sentimentally about this partnership because it was pretty surreal as a first episode to record in the showroom.
Because if you would've told Justin in culinary school that he would be interviewing a bestselling author in the showroom that I used to get intimidated walking into, I would call you a net case. And I'm just so incredibly grateful to get to. Do what I do with this show and for you folks, and I really hope that there are some insights in this episode that bring you some value, cuz at the end of the day, it's not about the cool things that I get to do, it's the cool things I get to help you folks accomplish.
And so keep sending me your success stories, your dms, all of the things that you folks are up to out there in the world accomplishing. Please share this episode with the friend, Screenshot this, share it on Instagram, tag me, tag Andrew. Tag JB Prince. And I'm just really excited to share this conversation with you.
Please enjoy.
Justin:
Do you keep this like encyclopedic knowledge of chef stuff?
Like how do you keep track of everything? You mean the fact that I knew Matt had been the chef there? Yeah. All of this stuff. Like, there's people, I'm just, I'm just older than you, Matt . I've just been around. No, I don't, I mean, I don't keep like like, like insane notes or, you know, I talk to someone like Ruth Rael.
Mm-hmm. , I mean, she has press releases from like 1979. I'm not even kidding. You know, like filed, like she's unbelievable like that. I've never been like a real jour like, you know, beat journalist. I don't have a lot of that stuff. No, I just, I, I've just been, you know, I've just lived a lot of it. I guess I get asked that, you know, I remember interviewing Bobby Fla for chef's drugs and rock and roll, and he mentioned a place called Trixie that was in the Times Square area, like in the eighties.
And I [00:04:00] was like, Oh yes, sweet potato fries with maple syrup. And he. How do you know that? Yeah. I'm like, I used to go there. Like I wasn't even, I was in the film business at that time, but like my girlfriend at the time liked that place. I don't know, I just, I have a good memory. I mean, in general. Yeah. And that, that, that has to help you as a, as a, as a writer.
Like just being able to pull things, like connecting dots. Right. Connecting dots since half the game. I think that helps. Yes. Uhhuh, I think that helps a lot. I wish I trusted it more cuz I tend to like over document when I'm observing stuff and sometimes I feel like maybe I lose the moment and I'm not gonna ever need to write in the detail that I'm, you know, I mean I'm clinically O C D.
Okay. Like clinically? Yeah. Like I take Zoloft and that's always a struggle for me is like how much is like, cuz I'll see writers, you know, other writers. Observing, like I wrote a book about the book Whose Door, years ago. Mm-hmm. , another journalist came and went as I was following the team, and like nobody was taking, but you know, I read their articles, their articles were great, you know, and I was sitting there scribbling like every knife, you know, How much of that are you gonna write?
It's hard, but I always feel like when I get, the minute I let myself get relaxed, I'm gonna miss something really important, you know? Does that, do you find that it helps you in the editing process though? How do you mean? The, the, you know, some people talk about the story comes together sometimes in the edit or, or it, it feels done when there's nothing left to edit out.
Do you feel that at all? I mean, I have a version of that line, which is that if I can stand to write it, people will be able to read it. So like, , if I'm like, you know, Within a story, I'm giving a little pocket bio of one of the characters. Like my own personal ability to keep writing it to me is a pretty good measure of how readable it'll be.
Like if I start to feel like I'm in quicksand and I'm like, I can't I don't care about [00:06:00] this part of it. Like I feel like probably that's a good radar. I could be wrong. How do you get high standards? How do I get high standards? Yeah. Cause that's what it is at the end of the day. It's like, Are we recording now by the way?
We just Oh, you are? I'm I, I started and I was gonna give an intro, but like, I'm gonna just keep going. Okay. So that's okay with you. That's fine. I mean high. I don't high standards, I mean, this is a little deep and revealing, considering we just met in person for the first time, but probably by being mortified by the last thing I wrote, you know.
There's parts of my last book I can't read, you know, and that book Chef Drives in Rock and Roll, like with one big exception. It got great reviews and, you know, I still get notes about it and, and it still gets nice reviews on Amazon and, and there's chapters I love, but there's chapters that got the best of me, and I probably let go of them sooner than I should have, or I just kind of couldn't take it anymore and I had to get the book in.
But that feeling is horrible. And you know, like this book that I'm finishing right now, that I don't wanna have that feeling. I want to, I want want, I want to want to sit down and reread it, you know? You know, and I tell people that and they, they're like about the last thing and they're like, You're crazy.
But I, I don't, I don't think I'm crazy. There's some parts of it that are flabby and you know, I could have taken a scalpel to it a little more, or I could. done some more writing of my own instead of like having such long quotes. And there were reasons at the time. I mean, I took forever to write that book.
I had to get it in. I had so much material that it was very hard for me to edit it down. I had so much. I mean, cuz you interviewed almost 200 chefs for that little more than, well, little more than 200 people. Got it. I'm not saying chefs aren't people, but that Yeah, I get it. Not all the people were chefs.
I get it. But yeah, it was about two 10 and I had all but like three or four last minute interviews transcribed professionally. And I mean, I have tens of [00:08:00] thousands of pages, tens of thousands now. At some point I'm gonna get permission from all those people. And I'm gonna take out all the stuff that was off the record and I'm gonna leave it, I think to somebody like, I think I'm gonna leave those transcripts to like, , I don't know, NYU Food Studies or the Culinary Institute of America or someplace like that, because I think that'll be an amazing treasure tro for somebody.
But not till I'm dead . Cause now it's mine. It's all mine. So many places to nobody else can partake right now. Although I have to say, having said that, it's a little bit ingest because I, Do you know who Joyce Goldstein is on the West coast? She was, she had a restaurant years ago called Square One, which was an important restaurant in San Francisco.
She is one of the many people who came out of she Panis. She has written, I think 20 something cookbooks and food books. And she's also a wonderful historian. She wrote a book called Inside the California Food Revolution that came out like five or six years ago. And When I was writing my book when I had sold the proposal Judy Rogers, who was, had been the, the, the real defining chef at Zuni Cafe was dying.
She had had cancer and, and I didn't really know her. I'd met her once. I didn't know her well at all. She might not have even known who I was. And I spoke to a couple of good friends of hers and they said, Don't, don't even make the ask. And so I didn't. Now Joyce had written her historical book, and when I interviewed Joyce, who I didn't know before this she gave me to quote from freely the transcript of her interview with Judy Rogers for her book.
Wow. Which is a distinctly California thing to do. Sure. I say is in as a New Yorker . . So I try to remember that, [00:10:00] you know, if somebody came to me and, I mean we lost Mark Peele a couple of, not even maybe a year ago. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. Mark's one of the guys on the cover of the book. He was in a lot of these restaurants.
You know, I have an amazing hour long interview with Mark if somebody was going over the same ground and they asked me and I trust and I thought they were doing something on the up and up, you know, I'd probably do that for, I'd probably pay it forward, you know, But generally speaking, no like, you know, But I do wanna, I do want to you know, my agreement with all the interviewees was I was only recording them for accuracy that Sure.
You know, I wouldn't you know, use the, play these things in a public way or twist 'em out of context. Like that's super context. Well that's, yeah. I mean, that's happens too often. No, unfortunately. I'd like to think at this point I have a reputation for being an honest broker. But yeah, of course.
But no, it is my plan to a stay healthy and live awhile and be to clean up the, out, you know, the off the record stuff and get people's permission and talk to some institution. Yeah. And leave, you know, these, I don't know what it is, It's probably like 30 to 40,000 pages of interviews. Mm-hmm. with everybody that's, I mean, it's everybody incredible.
You know, it's Alice Waters and Wolfgang p and Jeremiah Tower, and Lydia Shire and Sarah Moton and Alfred Portal and Jonathan Waxman. And it, it's everybody. And, and people who were sous chefs who are not household names and you know, people who were in the business then and got out. And yeah.
Anyway, yes. So many threads to, to pull on there. The, the one that I think is so fascinating to hear you talk about that book as a Scarlet letter. What, what, what you're, you're, you don't look back at it fondly. I think chefs have this funny thing that will sometimes happen as they go from their first or second or sometimes even third concept before they hit their, their thing.
And they have this, it [00:12:00] shows in all of the, the documentaries that they make on chefs, sometimes, not all of them, but It is a distinct part of the story to show the article with the one star review or the two star review. And that Chef looks back at that time, at that restaurant, the menu that they were serving, the cuisine that they were kind of trying to construct, and they just couldn't quite get it right.
And they're like, That's embarrassing. Like, I, I hate that. But then, you know, I think Wiley has a story like that, and then WD 50 comes after. Right. Right. So do, do you, do you feel do, do you get excited about that? Like, I like hearing about those stories of the, the before the success piece. And it's not like you aren't successful, but like to have a book come after that.
I just think people see failures as negative and they aren't always. Yeah. I mean, and also I don't I mean, I don't look, I don't, However you phrased it, I don't, I don't, I don't dislike my last book or, I mean, my last book in a lot of ways changed my career. Mm-hmm. , I can't talk about it publicly, but, you know, it's, it's, it's for the third time now under option for possibly turning it into a, a docu-series.
Amazing. You know industry people know it. Yeah. It's a lot easier for me to get interviews now. I get more calls to be, you know, I was just in this documentary about Mario Batali. I'm just there to give some history, you know? Sure. But all that kind of thing happens. Yeah. You know, which is great.
Mm-hmm. . But I, if I'm understanding your question, am I excited to have another at bat? Oh, yeah. I mean, I, the only reason the book I'm about to turn in, I mean, it hasn't been the, you know, the, the tardiness debacle that chef's drugs was, that took, I mean, I was supposed to take two years. I took five years.
This book I was supposed to turn in, in the spring, and I wanted a little more time. There's some, some supply chain issues that hit publishing, so they were gonna move the pub date a little bit anyway, so it worked out. And now I really do need to get it in. But one reason I haven't delivered it is I'm so happy I'm knocking on wood.
I'm so happy [00:14:00] with what I've written so far, you know, and I sit down sometimes and instead of picking up wherever I stopped, you know, I pick up on page one and I just read from page one. And you know, the few people, like my agent, my wife, you know, one or two friends who I've shown pages to, you know, they see it.
And, and I, it is, it, it's maybe a little weird to talk about this openly or publicly, but, you know, I have read about artists that I admire. Who, you know, were on the verge of doing something, and I use that term very broadly. And they, I, they had this feeling like they, they were like, they were putting everything into it and this was the thing, you know.
And you know, years ago, Chris Rock did a special on hbo. I don't know why it's not available. I wanted to watch it the other night. You can't watch it. Interesting. His first big one Sure. Bring the pain. Got it. The one that really took him to the level that he stayed at basically since it had some very famous bits in it, some of which he probably couldn't do right now.
Mm-hmm. . You may know the one, I mean you may not, but it was very I can't bring it to mind. Oh, well there's a bit in there that he does. Let's just say he identified a demarcation line within the black community. Got it. That involves a word. Mm-hmm. We don't use. Sure, sure. And. , it was a major, I remember him talking about this bit on the Oprah Winfrey Show.
Wow. And, but anyway, friends of his, I saw something that read something about the making of that thing, and friends of his talked about him getting ready for that performance. The, I remember somebody saying he trained for it the way a prize fighter trains for a title fight. And, and it for a very different example, and I'm, I'm not comparing myself to either of these gentlemen, but especially not to the second one, , you know, apparently what's the album?
The Bob Dylan album that has tangled up in blue on it. Is it Highway 61? I can't remember offhand. [00:16:00] Anyway, whatever album it was, people talked about, you know, him showing up in New York, you know, with these songs written and being just like unbelievably excited and knowing he had gotten like to another level.
And again, I don't know if, does it seem weird, but this is. This is what I feel like right now. I get, like, I feel like I'm walking around with this secret mm-hmm. , and it's this book and I'm really excited about it. And I, I'm most excited by if I'm right, I, how I think it's gonna be received by the culinary community, specifically restaurant people.
It's, it's, it's, I think a, a way of looking at a restaurant that's not been done. At least not exactly the way I've done it. It, it's been, it, it, there's a lot of little nooks and crannies where I can just drop in, just observed things that I've didn't even know I was gonna put in the book when I started writing it.
I got very lucky with the cast of characters and the subject and you know, I think all writers have this have had moments where, Sp Think Gray did a, a one of his, you know, monologue shows years ago called Monster in a Box. Mm-hmm. . And it was about like, you know, the, the manuscript was the monster in the box.
It's like this thing, like this feeling, well, it's this thing that you're afraid of, you don't like, you know, you, Oh, wake up in the morning. And there are days where you're like, I can't, you know, I don't know what to write right now. I, I don't feel that way with this book. I've not experienced writer's block.
I've not experienced confusion about how to structure it. I mean, I've had decisions to make and I've, I've certainly unmade and made them, you know, remade them in a different way. But like shift drugs in rock and roll, like just figuring out. What am I gonna whittle all this history down to, you know?
Mm-hmm. , that was hard. That took a long, that took months, maybe years if you added it all up, you know, and stuff that I wrote that never got used and, you know, restaurants I wrote entire histories of that aren't in the book. And, you know, like, there's none of that with this. This [00:18:00] is all very honestly, I woke up with this idea a couple years back and it's basically the idea I woke up with, basically.
It hasn't changed much. That feels so creatively sound when that happens. I, I feel very I don't know. I feel very lucky right now. I feel lucky that I get to do it. I feel lucky that I mean everyone had their version of this during Covid. You know, if you had asked me in, in October of 20, Are you gonna be a writer when this thing is over?
I honestly, I didn't know. I had no work. . I did not have a book under contract. I couldn't sell a project at the time. I tried. I still think the proposals I tried to sell during that time were really good, but couldn't sell it. I think pub everybody was too gun shy about trying to predict what would work two years from then.
And then in November of that month within about a week, I sold this idea. It was very Hollywood. I sold this idea on a phone call to my editor who I had never met in person. That's a long story, but my, my agent kind of set me up on a phone blind date with this editor, and I had no intention of pitching the book, but I thought he might respond to it, and he did.
And, and I mean, I had to write a little proposal. . And within that same week I was, I got a text from Daniel Belu asking me if I wanted to work with him on a memoir project. And then, you know, my life got back on track professionally. You know, the reason I bring up that question is because chefs I, I find, can sometimes get in this head space of like, Well, oh my God, I don't want that feeling that, that, that I, I screwed up the, the, the menu.
Or the critic came in and didn't have a good experience. Or the article comes out. Like, that's the thing that they show on the, all the TV shows, because it's like such a pit in your stomach feeling. But when I'm wanting to highlight for the, for the Listener is this idea of coming off of this project that you look back on and you don't see it as a, a, you have parts of it that you're not proud of, but you have this successful podcast that came out of it.
You have [00:20:00] this book that you're like glowing talking about. Mm-hmm. , like you can just hear it in your voice when you're describing this project. Yeah. I'm really excited about it. Like, It that's on the other side of some of this sometimes. And so, you know, hoping, hoping it's, it's a, it's at least a, a cautionary tale is the wrong word, but to just this, it's there, there's another side to this, you know, potential downside.
You know, I was talking to my a I do think it correlates to, I mean, to what well, I think anything that's expressive, but definitely what chefs do you know? My, my agent and I were talking recently about this book and, you know, I said something similar to what I just said to you and he said, You know, it's writing is very funny because if you're doing it right, you're always gonna be better on the next project.
Right. And you know, when I was a kid, I used to hear interviews with like, film directors I really admired. And, and a lot of times they'd say like, I can't watch my movies. I don't watch my own movies. And I was like, What are you talkin Like, You know, some of these movies were like best picture winners, you know, Iconic.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, everyone, Are we allowed to say the name Woody Allen? Like, when I was a kid, Woody Allen was like a movie making, you know, deity. And you know, like he, he would say like, I can't go back and watch Annie Hall, You know, that's one I remember. I'm like, What is he talking about? But I understand it now.
Mm-hmm. , you know you know, writing, I find, I, I think it might have been Ruth Reichl who said this? I know I, she quoted it. I don't know if it's her line, but I once saw this line saying, I don't like writing, but I love having written. And that's kind of like me, you know, like, I, like, I love having a polished.
Article, a great paragraph, a awesome sentence. You know, like the struggle to get there. I don't love it. I have friends who are much better than I am. You know, I'm not one of these natural stylists. You know people are already not remembering this name, but Joshua Zuki, who was [00:22:00] a writer here in New York, who I was very friendly with, I mean, I assume his, probably he had editors, maybe not.
But I assume somebody came in and like cleaned it up a little bit. But Josh would just spout these terms of phrase. I mean, he would do it at a bar at one in the morning. He was so extemporaneously brilliant. And. I'm not that guy. I'm not that guy. It's like a desire to be that guy, you know? And like mm-hmm.
I, I've gotten good enough at the craft, but I would never say that I have approached, you know, like the art of great writing. I don't, I don't think I am that person. I think it's why I do fact based stuff. And it's, you know, you mentioned my, you know, my, my podcast somewhere in the last several, you know, I started the show, my show About four months, five months before the book came out, before chef's drugs came out.
And somewhere in there I think I realized that really everything I do is a vehicle for my interviews. The only thing I feel like I do really well is interview. Mm. That's the only thing I'm really confident about. When did, when did you have that realization? Was there a moment?
I don't think I really knew it till I started doing my own show. , and recording it kind of thing, recording it, editing it, putting out for consumption. The kind of notes I would get from people, good friends calling me and saying I mean this is gonna start to sound really self-congratulatory fast, but like, you know, good friends, people who'd know me forever going, I had no idea, you know, like that.
Yeah. Like people who, you know, I, I'd put out 20 something books and no one, they never said anything to me about my writing, you know, but they heard me do these interviews and they were like, Oh my God, I had no idea. You know, before Andrew talks to chefs, I did a thing with my friend Jimmy Bradley, who's a chef, and he used to have among other restaurants, the Red Cat in New York, a beloved restaurant, and we wanted to do sort of what we called Meet the Press for Chefs.
And we did a show called the Front Burner and it went out live, and then it would live in, [00:24:00] it's still there, you can still look it up online. And. And even promoting books. I'd always love doing radio. Like we have, you have video equipment here. You know, I'm, this is probably the wrong, like, I hate worrying about my arms.
No, I hate, you know, but like, when you're on just strictly doing audio Sure. I love not worrying about is a hair out of place that I wear the right thing. You know, when I used to act in high school and college, I never knew what to do with my arms. Yeah. Like ever. Yeah. But just extemporaneously talking.
I love it. I, I do genuinely wanna know about people. I am very curious that way. And when we were getting ready to do the front burner, I started listening to a lot of podcasts. I never really did before that. And I was really drawn to Mark Me's podcast. Wtf. Okay. Which is one of the biggest podcasts in the world.
And, you know, initially that show. For people who don't know, Mark Meron was a comic. He's, he still is. He's an actor and he mostly, though he is an interviewer now, but you know, when he started that podcast, it was him interviewing other comics and it was about the craft and it was about the life.
And it was, and even when we started doing the front burner, in the back of my mind I was like, I want to be the Mark Marin of the chef world. Like I'm not a chef, Like he was a comic interviewing other comics. But I felt like I knew the world enough that I could interview chefs on equal footing. That I understood their life enough to ask questions about everything from cooking school to how the creative process, to the review process, to, to managing people, to how did you create your kind of professional curriculum of jobs early in your career.
And I had that in my head. And the minute, you know, Jimmy decided he was gonna move outta New York and, you know, he was gonna maybe do some other stuff and we were gonna stop doing the show. I mean, immediately I was like, I'm gonna do this thing. And you know, I mean into the two hundreds now of episodes and yeah.
But one, and as soon as, I [00:26:00] mean the first one I did was with Alex s Stupak and even that one, I mean, I couldn't, I was like, How are people even finding this? I'm so excited for his new restaurant. Yeah. I can't wait to go. Well, I think he's brilliant. Yeah, I think he's absolutely brilliant. Mm-hmm. . Um, But you know we started, it started strong, you know, and Alex was, it's a funny thing.
I sent him a note about this sometime during Covid, cuz I had re-listened to it. I originally had another guest booked and for the first show, and they had to cancel. Wow. And right like within 10 minutes of the cancellation, I got an email from his PR firm saying, Hey, we saw you're starting a show. Do you want to?
And I had met Alex once or twice. . I'd always been a little intimidated I by him. He, I, you know, he's very intimidating. Well, he's very, he's really smart. Mm-hmm. , he's really quick. Mm-hmm. . My, he's multidisciplinary. He's mul in the kitchen. Yes. Yeah. And he also, I had this vibe from him and based on where he had worked, you know, for people who don't know, he had worked it.
You know, he was the opening pastry chef at Alinea and he had been the pastry chef at WD 50, comes outta some hardcore environments. And you know, my impression was he probably doesn't suffer fools very well. He had done my old show once and the one Jimmy and I did, and he was super nice. And he became the first guest.
And all of this is a long way of me saying, because it was Alex. I, I, I mean, I prepped really extensively. I still do, but I don't come with like, pages of notes. I don't come with physical notes anymore. That's like a thing of mine. But at the time, because it was Alex, I was, I mean, I prepped the way like James Lipton preps for inside the, I mean, I.
So many notes and I had his book with me and you know, the Taco book. And I had like, I, I mean, and we had an amazing conversation and to be honest, it built up my confidence, the fact that I could kind of go 15 rounds with him and not embarrass myself. And that just set a tone. [00:28:00] I mean, you asked about how do you set a standard before that set a standard really fast, you know?
And then I'm friendly with Amanda Cohen and I had her lined up to be the second guest already. And then I had Mike Anthony come on very early and then you know, it's funny cuz I've known her before she did television or anything, but Amanda Fry tag, who's now very well known from Chopped and all these other things.
I mean, I knew Amanda back when she was a sous chef in New York and I saw her at Missy Robbins' book party for Missy's first book. And you know, Amanda said, oh, can I come on? I saw you have a show. Can I come on? I was like, Yeah. So she was my fourth guest and I always talk about that episode as being the one where I felt like the show found its voice.
Because it was a really good mix of like New York City restaurant. Not that the show's just New York, but her career's been here, like New York City restaurant history, her personal trajectory as a cook and as a chef. And then she's just a great, I never knew this, but she was a great storyteller.
She told some funny stories in that interview and that mix. To me, I remember thinking, this is, this is like a great, this is the show. This is what I want. This is like, not every show needs to have this makeup of elements, but this is going somewhere that I really felt good about that one. You touched on this term.
Professional curriculum. Yeah. A lot of people think of it as, that's my cv, that's my resume. This is a bunch of restaurants that I worked at as a collective, but I've, I've never heard of it phrased in that way before. And I think I shared with you that the, the listener might be the culinary school student or the line cook.
And so, after interviewing so many people, in bringing up that topic on so many shows with so many of these high performing chefs, have you noticed commonalities in people's professional curriculum? Cause obviously these people work at different places, but is there a, like step outside of your comfort zone slash move abroad slash like any commonalities there that you would impart on the, on the listener?
I think probably, I haven't thought [00:30:00] about it that way. I think probably, you know, if I sat down and charted it out, there's probably some like groups that would start to materialize. You know . I do, I do. But what I mean by professional curriculum is, I think you know it, you know, I just mean whether or not you went to cooking school.
I think, you know, the people who've become our most compelling chefs and, and maybe our most successful ones in a lot of cases are people who maybe they didn't always know. You know, it's like when you like what's the, when you're a kid, what is it when you close your eyes and it's like warmer, you know, like you hide and you're either warmer or colder.
Yeah. Yeah. Like if you're getting closer, you're warmer. Yep. Yep. It's close in the graveyard. Isn't that the game? Not where I grew up, but it's probably the same game, but it's like, you know, are you getting closer to the thing or further? Mm-hmm. And the person who's kind of in charge will tell you warmer, colder.
Right. Marco Polo. Marco Polo is one of them. In the pool. Yeah. In the pool. Yeah. Yeah. So this is Well, no Marco Polo though, you just say, One person says Marco, and then the other person hiding, Just pull up. Yeah, you're right, you're right, you're right. Anyway, I can't remember. But the upshot is, I feel like that's what a chef's early an aspiring chef's cook days are like, Right?
Like you, you, you start off, you maybe have a sense, I want to be this kind of a chef, Right? And probably that involves some intersection of a, a, a level of formality and precision or not. And then a style, right? And, and I think if you're smart and strategic, you pick jobs that feed those two things, right?
So, you know, are are, do you want to be at the very pinnacle of I guess what we still call fine dining, you know where knife work and precision cuts and all this kind of thing is, is, is valued. Do you wanna do something that's more kind of un fussy rustic, whatever you wanna [00:32:00] call it? I've long since stopped putting those two things in opposition to each other.
I don't believe in it. I don't believe in stratifying. I don't believe that what you get at a restaurant like per se, which I love is superior innately to what you might get at an amazing Thai restaurant in Queens that no one's ever heard of. I, I don't, I don't, I've, I used to probably think that way. I, I, I've long since stopped, but whatever it is you want to do I think you pick jobs that are gonna give you that experience.
So let's, if we take someone who maybe wants to do you know their somewhat. Personal spin on traditional Thai food. Okay, well what, Okay, if you're not Thai yourself and you're still gonna go for it, and risk, you know, being accused of appropriation and all of that. Yeah. Well then maybe you need to go to Thailand.
You know, when you get to Thailand, it might be as important to spend some time getting introductions into people's homes as it is, into restaurants. You know and then you may want to go to different places around if you're an American chef, the US that are doing great Thai food. In all different kinds of restaurants, you know, and, and then you may zero in on something and and, and go oh, you know, this really appeals to me.
You know, I, I, I, whenever I speak at a cooking school, if I get asked that blanket question, like, what's your advice for young cooks? Which is so hard. Yeah. But what, Well, it's not a good question. Totally. It's totally, It's not advice for to do what? Right. Like, for me as a person, the answer I've, I've, I just came out once, Thank God.
Cuz I, I didn't wanna seem like I couldn't answer that question, but what I said was, you know, be attuned to what turns you on. Yeah. And don't worry about why. Yep. Right? Yep. A lot of the more compelling chef narratives of the last 20 years [00:34:00] make no sense at the time. Right. David Chang. David Chang comes up working in.
French, high end French kitchens. Like Daniel right? I'm older than you are. I was around New York when he opened the first Momofuku Noodle bar. No, everybody was like, what? It was exciting. It got word of mouth really fast, but it was like this guy who used to work for Daniel opened like a, a counter noodle bar and he's doing pork buns and like what?
He's one of the most successful chefs in the world that made no, that did not compute at the time. You know, And I think those are the stories that are really capturing people's imagination now. You know, and I think you take a dotted, you could draw a dotted line directly from what he did to what? I mean, not as well known a name.
But like Hunny Kim, who also was at Danielle, who then opened dji, which is still around, and Han John, which is sadly no longer around, but one of my. Favorite restaurants in New York while it was here. You know, this really cool you know, recognizably Korean, but some of it was his own take on it.
You know, and then there's people like there's a chef in New York named Sunny Lee. Do you know that? I don't know if you know that name. It sounds super familiar, so Sunny that per se x per se. I can't remember if she worked. She definitely worked at Blue Hill Stone Bars at one point. She definitely intersected with Greg Baxtrum of Olmsted, who we were talking about before.
But you know, Sonny does you know, Banchan are traditionally side like side dishes, for lack of a better phrase in Korean cuisine. Sunny does this thing, She calls it Banchan by sunny and, and she kind of makes the Banchan the center of attention, right? And that's her own thing. That's evolved over time now.
I think you draw a line from somebody like Sunny to somebody like hunny to what David did, you know? [00:36:00] And, but all these are people just kind of following their own star, and I'm sure in none of these cases, where did they start off with these highfalutin French kitchen jobs thinking this is where I'm gonna end up, You know?
But gradually that's where their, whatever you wanna call it, spirit inspiration, whatever, that's where it all led them. And I believe that's where the best, most compelling, successful cooking comes from. I think it has to be, and it might be French, you know you know, I had a conversation with someone recently, which I probably shouldn't even talk about, but I'll be as, as like blonde blandly, generic as I can.
But it was a chef of color. Doing a certain type of food. And you know, a friend of mine we did not have it together, but a friend of mine said, you know, that they, one of the, they didn't respond to it as well as I did, and one of the reasons was they thought it was like white man's food. And I'm like, Well, does everyone of color have to mind their own personal background?
You know? Yeah. Can, can I, can, can someone of a, a Latin or Latinx, if you prefer background, not be jazzed by French food? You know? Yeah. Like, is that, is that not okay? I don't know why that's not okay. You know, I, I think whatever works for you, you know, we were talking about Alex Stupak before. I mean, there, there's a per, you know, there's a personal reason, you know, his wife is Mexican American.
He spent years loving Mexican food. He did a lot of homework. That happens to be what really floated his boat, you know, And he took it very seriously. And you know, but I, whatever it is and whatever it is, I, I think, you know, when I interview chefs I often will say like, What was it about this that appealed to you?
If you can even put words to it. Cuz I think as often as not, it's like love at first sight. There's just something animal in you [00:38:00] that responds to something and in some ways maybe it's best not to examine it, you know? And, and just, and just, you know, as a chef friend of mine in California likes to say, Just let it happen.
You know, just like see where it takes you, you know? And I do think, I think being alive to your own reaction to things is. Invaluable. And I don't, I, I don't think you get taught that. But I think the people, you know, who have had the most success, who are the people whose books we read and the people we watch on shows like Chef's Table, like I think those are people who, somewhere along the way, they had that, they had that moment.
You know, the light fell just right. And they saw their lane and like they understood who they were on the plate, and they just went in on that, you know? And I think that's, I think that's where happiness lies. I think that's true for anyone who does something expressive. I think I had no intention of writing about chefs when I was growing up.
I wanted to be a scr. I've stumbled into this life, absolutely stumbled into it. And I, you know, I love it. You know, I used to work for a film producer in my twenties and I remember him giving an intern like a welcome talk one day and he was saying, you know as you watch movies, this person at the time was like probably a student at nyu, right?
Just be aware of what you like and don't worry about why, and don't worry about if anyone else likes it, just worry about if you like it, cuz those are probably the movies you're gonna wanna produce direct. Write Whatever, when the time comes, you know? And if you go to the film world, like is there a more successful director in the last 25 years than Quentin Tarantino?
Those movies are like, those are just the product of, you know, all these movies. Curiosity. Yeah. And all these movies he watched when, you know, famously now when he was a video store clerk, you know, just like a sponge for all these movies [00:40:00] that his mind chews up and spits out as, as their own thing, you know?
But I think he's unquestionably an artist. , you know, but who saw that coming? You know? And you know, the proof is how many, you know, there's so many people who wanna be him and they do stuff, and it's just, Well, I think that's what, where people get stuck is trying, following the path of trying to be someone.
Yeah. And, and by definition, if you do that, you will always be second place to quit in Tarantino. Yeah. Or like how many Chef memoirs want to be Tony Bourdain. Exactly. And none of them have been. Yep. Some people have written good books. I think the ones who have done, you know, like when Gabrielle Hamilton wrote Blood Bones and Butter, but that was her own book.
She wasn't trying to be Tony. Mm-hmm. , you know I write my stuff. I'm not comparing myself to Tony, who was like my North star in a lot of ways. But, you know, when I, I've, I've accepted. , my place is kind of, you know, the geeky friend of the chef world on, you know, on the margins. Yeah. You know, who's been accepted, you know?
Yeah. Like, I, this is really dating myself, but it was such, people probably still know it, you know, I used to walk into parties with like, you know, it'd be me and like three chefs, you know, we'd walk into a party and people were like, Really? Andrew? And I just would go, Do you, do you remember Happy Days?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I would go point to the chefs and be like, Fonzi, and then point to myself and go, Richie Cunningham, . You know, I've, I've, for whatever reason I've been accepted in a world where I stand out like a sore thumb, you know? But it's, you know, I've been, at this point, it's like most of my friends are chefs.
I've, I don't have that many friends who are writers, you know, chefs. I mean, a good, my good friend Evan Sung is a photographer. Mm-hmm. I don't have that many, I have a few friends who are writers, but I, you know, never having worked at a magazine or a website or a blog or like, I never spent time in those rooms.
So I never developed that network. I, I [00:42:00] am at a point in my life now where, you know, I, there's a lot of writers I've met cuz they asked, you know, wanted to have coffee when they first showed up and get some advice and like, you know, I know people like that, but yeah, I don't, my social circle is much more in the, in the kitchen realm.
So, I wanted to ask you, cuz as I was kind of scrolling back through your Instagram and seeing what restaurants in New York get you excited Yeah. As you go to a new place, whether it's super hyped up or Hole in the wall, or undiscovered gem or, or what have you, and you walk in and, you know, whether you're solo or, or eating with someone.
What do you look for in a, in a new restaurant menu? Chef's expression. I think it, well, I think first of all I think every lunch or dinner comes with its own kind of rules of engagement. So like, what am I do? Am I just going out to dinner with my wife? Yeah. Yeah. So if I'm just gonna have to, with my wife, My wife doesn't care about, she doesn't want a TAY menu. You know, I'm really high on this restaurant right now in Brooklyn called Clover Hill.
We, we went, my wife and I went there. Oh, did you? Yeah. We took your recommendation. I hope it was good. It was in the, it this question is in the context. I can show you my notes after It's in the context of Clover Hill. Okay. So Clover Hill, you know, Kate doesn't do tasting menus. So I went I I, I, I walked by it.
We just moved back to Brooklyn, thank God, after seven years in suburbia. And I was walking around and I walked by it and I was like, What is this restaurant? Why don't I, it looks so cute. It was a Saturday morning. Incredibly cute. Incredibly cute. It's such a cool vibe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And but this was like in the morning, there was one person behind the ball, you know, in the kitchen.
I could barely see them. And I, I looked it up and, you know, the chef there is from Charlie. Mitchell I think is you know, he's worked at Beany and per and 11 Madison and it was another one of the really high end New York places oh, one White Street. Yep. In Tribeca. That's right. [00:44:00] And, huh I was really interested.
So it's a tasty menu restaurant, but a la carte at the bar. Well, I, I went and ate at the bar because my wife won't do a Tasty menu. And, and and then I was gonna go, I made a reservation that same night to come back a week later with someone. I had plans with a chef and at the last second she had an emergency and I didn't want to cancel my reservation.
I couldn't find anyone last second. I mean, it's a big commitment to call someone on like two hours notice and say, Do you want to go do like seven courses or whatever? So I messaged, I, I met the guys when I was there and I messaged them and I said Hey this friend of mine had an emergency. I don't wanna cancel.
Do you mind if can, can we do a la carte at a table? And they were like, Sure. So I haven't had the tasting menu yet. Got it. But so if it's a night out with my wife, I, I generally, cuz I try to, you know, live the hospitality ethos even though I'm not in the business, I just want her to be happy.
Right. So it's pretty, we keep it pretty simple. I mean, we go, we live now three blocks from the Revivified G and Toner. I, we've to eat, I've eaten at a table there. She and I often just go to the bar. We just went Saturday night before a movie and we get like some fries and some raw bar and maybe one main course thing and maybe a dessert and, you know, a couple of martinis and or margaritas and.
And that's fun. That's great for us. There's a restaurant called Bar in Brooklyn. Mark St. Jacque is the chef. I love that restaurant. She does too. You know, probably my favorite restaurant right now for the last year and a half or so has been Franci. Yeah. In Williamsburg, which I absolutely love.
But there again, it's like, it's pretty classic. Service is great. I think Chris Chip owns food is amazing. And Kate loves it, you know, and, and you, sometimes we just go to the bar now, you know, and just have a course or two separate of my marriage. . Yeah. You know, it depends, like if I'm going out with food people, sometimes the mission is you know [00:46:00] I want to go.
We're gonna go to a, we're gonna go to a dinner. That's almost gonna be like going to a museum. You know, We're gonna go whether it's a taste Well, you mentioned a Tara before. Yeah. A Tara to me. Was that you? For people who don't remember, a Tara had like a, a horseshoe counter with a kitchen in the middle.
It was a tasty menu restaurant. And then there was like one table, I think that sat six. Mm-hmm. Just behind the counter. Just behind the counter meeting. Like between the counter and the front door. Totally. Yeah. And, and, and to me that was like the kind of restaurant where I would go. Food people, and we were going there to eat and talk about what we were eating like that we weren't, I would not, you don't go there for a business dinner.
You don't go there with someone who wants the, the garden salad and the roast chicken. Like you go there with someone who literally, when the, when the staff says, Is there anything you can't eat? You there the answer's, Unless it's an allergy, which I've since developed an allergy, but Oh no. It's okay.
Almonds. I go to almonds. Got it. Yeah. It's okay. But but you know, other than that I just say what, you know, like, just send it, you know that's who goes to a restaurant like that. If it's a restaurant like that I mean the, the, I, I'd probably be a good Michelin reviewer because like, first and foremost for me it is the food.
You know, at this moment in time, after or during whatever we're saying about c. I'm not really interested in a lot of bells and whistles. I'm not really interested in, you know, kind of a showoffy exp. I'm not like, I'm not interested and I don't say this. I loved it. I loved it, I loved it when it was doing its thing, but you know, like the 11 Madison Park of, of 10 years ago, which at the time I wrote a love letter to it once on my blog at the time, but I'm not looking for that right now.
Got it. But I am, you know, if it's really cool food and exciting I'm happy to have it presented pretty simply. I, I'm kind of aligned more with people, probably a little younger than me, than older than me, and that I really don't have a huge need or desire to get dressed [00:48:00] up. You know, it's one of the things I love in Brooklyn is you can go to a great, you can go to France or you can go to clo, Clover Hill.
I mean, I'm sitting here wearing a, a black lucky Pullover niche shirt and jeans. I could walk into either of those places. I could go there right from here, you know, and I love that. I really do once in a while. Sure. It's fun, you know so that, you know, so anyway, for, for kind of what we might call artistic food, I still like it with the right people.
For everyday food, to be honest. I, is this a dumb thing to say? I just want it to be good. Is that, is that crazy?
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Justin: Are you familiar with Virgol Abloh the designer who? Just that na, So he, he was the head of almost all of this stuff for Louis Vuitton before he, he passed and he had a brand with Nike called Off White, which is like crazy streetwear hype beast kind of super expensive.
And he had this line as he was talking about his rules for creativity. and he has this line where he goes, It should appeal to the tourist and the purist Oh, I love that. And I love that with food. Yeah. Yeah. The person who is from some town just outside of Kansas City and doesn't really ever go out, they can sit down and have your food and you and I can go out.
[00:50:00] We've had all the tasting menus that you can imagine. We sit down and, and we also enjoy it too. Well, years ago, the epitome of that to me, I mean he has a very successful restaurant now, is just no longer where he was. But, you know, when Alfred Portale years ago was at the Gothen Park Grill, you know, Alfred had trained at all these three star Michelin restaurants in France came back.
But like, you could go to the Gotham, you could go with a table full of food journalists, or you could bring like your mom, you know, And, and there was nothing that was gonna throw your mom off and there was nothing. Well, the journalists wouldn't have ordered the garden salad, you know, But it was there.
You know, my chef in, in Norway that I worked for last would tell, we would ask us, me and the other sous chef that were there, when we would put up a new dish for the tasting menu, he'd look at it and he'd be like, Would you serve that to your mom? And it was a very good way to swing it back the other way, cuz that's our nature.
We want to cook for, We want to impress the chefs, right? We want to impress the industry person. We want to impress the critic who just sat down. And sometimes that'll take you too far away from mom. And so to swing it back a little bit, Yeah. Like, would you describe this to your mom and would she understand it?
And if the answer's no, it's like maybe you need to, again, don't take it all the way back to zero. Don't delete it, but it's. It's, it, it, it was helpful for me when I would get to, you know, in the clouds. Yeah. Well, this is, to me, you know, there's this age old thing is like cooking an arter a craft, you know, and like the, I mentioned Alex Stupak being my first guest.
We had this conversation where he's like, he thinks it can be, I think he said maybe artistic, but then you bump up against things because art is supposed to evoke an emotion. This was his part of his definition. And, you know, he was like, You, you don't want food to evoke sadness. You know, I, I mean, I'm, but there are probably chefs out there who are doing food that probably they do want it to do that, you know?
It's, it's, it's a funny thing. I mean, I, I had a [00:52:00] moment years ago, I went to a very exclusive dinner with like a group of chefs. It was hard to get into. And it was, it was, I'd put it in the modernist realm. Okay. I'll just say that. And then a few days later, I was having a very, in New York, a very traditional Italian lunch at a restaurant.
Good. I mean, really good with one of the chefs I'd been at this thing with. And I said, You know, this thing we went to the other night, it was audacious, it was ambitious, it was impressive. It was technically off the charts. And the, and he knew what I was gonna say, and he's just nodding. He goes, And, and I pointed at this little salad I was eating and the, and the, and the plate of salmi in front of us and the, and the bread.
Right. And I said, I will be goddamned if this lunch isn't a hundred times more soul satisfying. and I, It was true. I get it. It was true. I get it. You know, and sometimes I will go to restaurants, you know, to me, if I'm gonna go to a place that's like really trying to like the world on fire, I still want to be moved.
Mm. You know, like, go on that. Huh? Go on that. What does that mean? Well, I mean, I just, I'm not just interested, like if you're gonna do box scores, it's not enough for me to have, you know, 10 is the B the top, right? Mm-hmm. , it's not enough for me for like knife work, 10, you know presentation 10 flavor, maybe flavor even is 10.
But then there's like emotional resonance or you know, wow factor, whatever you wanna call it. And that's, you know, you could have all those tens I just mentioned. You could have an emotional resonance of like, , you know? Mm. And, and often you do. And that really leaves me cold and I don't know what I'm paying for cuz it's expensive and, and usually to eat like that.
And [00:54:00] I just yeah. I mean, I think people who can, who can straddle that line. I think it's really cool. I'm trying to think who over the years has really kind of knocked me out like that. You know, I think I, he's, he's not a part of any of those restaurants anymore and he, I have to say he's somebody I wrote a cook cookbook with.
But, you know, I think some of what Michael White did and his Italian restaurants, like the, the fancier, like Maria mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , I, I thought mere was pretty. pretty great. I, and I was just as happy at the bar there with some crude and a pasta as I was at a table doing the full four or five course, whatever it was, you know, re they had a recommended number of courses.
I think that's the only meal I've had at Maria to twice is the, you know exactly what you said. You do, you do a starter, you do a pasta, you do a piece of fish and you would just, you know, in a dessert. Yeah. So, but like, I loved that. Mm-hmm. , you know, where he did ota, Ria Marini, you know, which was like a straight up Amelia Roman.
He trained in Emilia Roman, and I went to Amelia Ramani with Michael and like the food at Osteria Marini, it may still be, I don't know, he's not with the group anymore. Mm-hmm. . I've been to Mare since he decamped, and it was still fantastic for Marini to me, like sometimes I would, especially like the season we're going into now, that food was so hardy and so good and it was like having been over there with him.
I mean it like, you know, I always, like with Italian food, I'm always like, Did it bring a teary your eye? Mm-hmm. , Like, if it didn't bring a teary your eye, it failed , you know? Yeah. Again, I'm partial, I'm working with him on something, but, you know, I feel like, like, like I feel like Danielle's restaurants pull that off.
Ballooned with French food. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm . I feel like you know, Gabrielle Koor is a restaurant that I love. I send more people cuz he's not as known as like Keller or Blue or Home or, you know, But to me, Gabrielle's right there to me, he is the, [00:56:00] and Joe Anthony, his chef, his chef to cuisine I, I think is great.
And, and my God, I just absolutely love the food there. I think it's exciting. I think he really minds you know, the breadth of what you get exposed to as a New Yorker. You know, I think it would surprise people to go into a room that looks like that. And, you know, he's the former chef of the Modern and John George's former, you know, whatever it was, sous chef or chef de cuisine, whatever the title was.
But you know, you walk in there and there's like jalapeno peppers and you know, like he, he pulls from all over the place. And you know, that stuff to me is pretty great, but just as often as not, I mean, I'm not, I'm seriously, I go through waves. There, there are times where I just wanna like devour the newest, you know, I'm getting ready to go to la I'm gonna speak, I'm gonna speak at the LA Chef conference.
When's the last time you were in la? Like mid-December of 2019. Okay. Right before, Right before the plague. Mm-hmm. . And I haven't been back. I, I, I could have gone back by now. I just haven't gotten around to it. And but I, I spoke at the last LA Chef conference, and I, I, I was like I'm gonna go.
I'm gonna go. And then when Brad Metzger, who puts it on, he and I are friends and, you know, I said, I'm gonna come. And then he said well, I want you to speak. So I'm, now, I'm gonna speak, but I'm going there for the week. And I haven't figured out where I'm gonna go yet. But like, you know, I may just go to Vespertine.
You know, I may just, I don't know him at all. You know, I may just do that. I'm interested. He's from that same cohort as Alex. Yeah, I know. Mm-hmm. , but, you know and I very distinctly remember we were on stage together promoting chef's drugs at rock and roll, but Ruth Rankl said to me that the late Jonathan Gold.
told her she was gonna hate it, and then she went and she loved it. Wow. And that made me very curious. Mm-hmm. You know, but I'll also go to Kapo in Santa Monica and, and eat a steak and some pasta. You know? I love that restaurant, and, and I'm sure I'll hit a food truck, you know, I'll go get some [00:58:00] tacos.
I mean, I'll hit, I'll do the full breadth of stuff as much as you can in a week. For me it's gonna be about how many, you know, places and friends, places I return to versus, you know, I've never eaten at what's it, Evan? Funky play. Oh, Felix, I've never been to Felix. Mm-hmm. never. Mm. I really want to try that pasta.
Yeah. It's, it's like, it's probably the most hyped pasta in the United States. Mm-hmm. , you know, I, I'd like to try that, you know, and in the same part of town, I love Dave Baron's. Pa, Pa I love mm-hmm. love. Mm-hmm. , you know, I've been there like three times. Like, Ja. Have you been to Jaina? Yes. Yeah. Also phenomenal for breakfast.
Oh, interesting. Yeah. Go for dinner. Yeah. It's phenomenal. Yeah. I can I just say, Yeah, I won't say it. I'll you off there please. . All right. I had one of those moments there at Postly? No, it's Ele Lina. Okay. Yeah, we went for breakfast and I asked, I ordered bacon and I wanted it. I said, Can they, can you make and do the bacon?
Well done. Yeah. And they said the kitchen won't do bacon. Well done. Oh, I don't, I don't really believe in that. Yeah. Interesting. I don't really, That's like, Hmm. I don't know. Yeah. Why? I don't know why. . It's interesting. It was delicious Bacon. Yeah. Yeah. But that , I should, That's so interesting. I should have said that.
No, I'm sorry, Angelina. I love you, Julian. No, I mean, if we, if we cut it out, we cut it out, it's just No, it's your show. But yeah. No, but that kind of, I don't understand that kind of Yeah, Yeah. Yeah. I don't understand that kind of, I mean, okay. That's, that's your feeling. Mm-hmm. . But I'm not asking you to transform a dish.
I'm just asking for another, I get it. Another 30 seconds of fire. You know, it's, it's one of the reasons why when I try to, I try to document experiences going out to eat and share them, because I, I, it's what I would've wanted when I was, you know, writing some of my first menus for myself, is just to be able to kind of like, visually flip through a tasting menu.
Like that's why I kind of like post my food videos Uhhuh online is because it's this. But I, but I, I'm very clear to [01:00:00] not put a number rating on it. I don't put out a best meals of 2020 Yes. Or 2021. Right. You know, like a, a listal kind of thing, because I call it, this specific night at this specific place with these specific people.
Mm-hmm. . And to your point, the food could have been amazing on any other night, but because of a weird interaction with a service person or the, the dish that you get all hyped on this pasta place and you go and the pasta is sold out, so you have to order something else, or, you know, something to that effect.
Yeah. I just think it's like seeing the understudy in a Broadway show. Yeah. And, and, and we're not playing the same beats on a beat machine in, in kitchens. Right. We're cooking with new ingredients on potentially new menu on that with maybe even a new staff because one of the guys didn't show up Yeah. On that specific night.
So I, listen, I, I sympathize with all this. I I, I try to be the most I try to be like the anti jerky, you know, food entitled food writer. Like, I, I mean, unless I get like raw chicken, I, I don't send things. I don't Have you always been like that? Not when I was ano If, when I was anonymous, like when I was when I was like a young kid, you know, in the film business, No.
If something was inedible or not good, I mean, it would have to be really bad. I wasn't never, I was never, you know, I, I had been a busboy and stuff like that. I was never mean, but, you know, yeah. If something was terrible, then maybe I would send it back. Rarely. But now, I mean, it's, it's very weird for me now because certainly in New York, but also in other places, like I just book on, you know, REI or on Open Table, but like, as often as not now, I, you know, like somebody spot knows who I am and that's weird for me.
It's, it's al almost always nice. But I, because of that, I don't, I don't, I try not to complain. I really try not to complain. [01:02:00] And if I ever, I, I almost don't do it anymore. But if people ask me to get them in somewhere, I now actively tell them, Listen, you are, you are not allowed to complain. Oh. You know, like you are.
Yeah. You know, like these people extended themselves and, you know, cuz I once had set someone up at a restaurant and like they complained about the table, you know, And I was like, you can't, No, no, no. Yeah. But no, it'll ha and it would have to be, I, I, I won't say where, but you know a couple years ago I went out somewhere and I was with one of my professional elders.
A a a critic, retired critic who always would gimme grief cuz I never would voice a. To a restaurant. And we got served a, a very simple chicken that I, I will say it was edibly, salty. I mean it was really salty. And and this, and this person said to me, Well, I assume you're just gonna eat. We were all sharing, Well, I assume you're just gonna eat it all cuz you won't ever send anything back.
And I, I was like, You know what? You're right. This is, this should go back. And I, I, I had, you know, I I, I got the attention of our server and I said, Listen, I never do this. And we had only taken like, it was it was like a pounded out chicken and had some kind of a sauce. And, and I, I, we had clearly only cut a little piece off one end, so, you know, like 10 inches away on the other side.
I said, I said, This is really salty. And I said, and honestly, if they don't mind, you can see, I said, just have one of the guys in the back, nick a piece from this. and they came back and said the kitchen's really sorry. Wow. You know, But it would have to be like that. Yeah. It would have to be. And if I were on my own and that happened, I probably wouldn't have still, I just, I can't, I don't, I don't, I don't wanna make people feel bad.
It's a great example [01:04:00] though, cuz like, there's a, there's a way to do it and there's a way to not do it. Yeah. But I just, Yeah. If it's, like I say it has to be something I say raw chicken cuz like Yeah. That could make you very sick, Right? Like it would have to be something like that. I, I don't, or you know, here's your, like having told them I don't, I can't eat almonds and then, you know, an almond thing drops, you know, in front.
But it has to be something like that. But what was the question that led me on this like tangent? Well, we were talking about the, the, the tourist and the purest anecdote on just food, creativity restaurant experience. Right. Cuz it's clearly. You're in the best city, One of the best cities in the world for it.
Yes. And then we were talking about LA that's, that's how also how Oh, LA right? Yeah. And I don't know where I'm gonna go. Yeah. That's gonna be a hard week for me to allocate. You know, I only have if I take the conference out, cuz that's a full day at night. And I think, I haven't booked my return ticket, but I think I'm taking a red eye home that Friday that gives me four days and nights.
If you count my departure night, it's not much. LA's a big city. It's huge. I'll, I'll share a couple places with you when we turn the mics off it, because I, I was there a month and a half ago. Yeah. And a really lot of good, good food experiences. Good. It's, it's, it's, it's on, it's on LA is on the, the thing I was gonna ask you was, do you have talks on different topics, kind of like preloaded that you like to speak on?
Or is there Oh, you mean like a, like a Yeah, like when you could ask like a, like a thing where you could like pull the string and like no. Okay. Can you talk about the same. kind of topics. I don't give that many talks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm trying to get better at it. I'm, I I would like to, you know, I mean, I did have a little bit of a thing like that, like with chef's, drugs, and rock and roll, and I did post a thing.
It's so funny cuz I, I didn't realize it, but I live right around the corner from one of the places I went to. You know, when when, when that book came out, I posted a little thing on Instagram and said like, Hey, if you want me to come talk to your team about American Restaurant and Chef history, I'll come, You know, And I didn't do it many places.
I actually did it at per [01:06:00] se. Mm-hmm. I got a very nice they were the, that was the first. place that asked when I posted like almost immediately. Cool. The, the general manager at the time is now I think director of ops for KE for Keller on the East coast, so has New York and also like surf club down in Florida.
Mm-hmm. . Got in touch and I went and spoke in the dining room there. That was great. Incredible. And then I went and spoke at this place Chica Brewing Company in downtown Brooklyn, which I live literally around the corner. I walked by the other, I was like, Oh my God, that's the place. Wow. But the chef there at the time, or maybe he was a consultant at the time, Sean Burnett, he has a great Instagram handle, three star student.
He got in touch and I went and spoke there. I didn't do a lot of them, but you know, as time allowed and as people wanted. And I, and then I did go and speak to the culinary historians of Washington DC and I did a version of that and I spoke to the culinary historians. I think Los, I don't know what tech, I mean, LA is, if you know, la, LA is not just, you know, people don't understand this, but LA is a collection of cities.
What most people think of as LA is LA and Beverly Hills and Santa Monica and Brentwood and Venice and right north. Totally. Yeah. But I think it was the culinary historians of Los Angeles, it might have been of Southern California now that I think of it. Anyway, I went and spoke to them and tho those were all variations on a, on a talk, you know, that I had like post-its in one copy of my book.
But that's the only time I've ever really had that. I, if I'm honest, I don't, I love the idea of presenting Indepe individually in reality, I don't love it cuz I feel like to really be good at it. You have to be a little bit artificial unless you're a very certain type of person. Got it. I think you have to kind of put on a persona.
Mm-hmm. and I, I have nothing against people who do it, but at some point I realized I don't like doing it. I [01:08:00] am much more comfortable. This is why for the longest time, you know, I had my wife do my podcast interviews with me cuz I didn't like talking myself. I just like to converse, you know? And I'm much more comfortable, whether it's as a guest or as a presenter, I'm much more comfortable dialoging, you know, then I'm fine.
Makes sense. Yeah. But I, no, I've never really you know, I pro like the university club invited, I, I did that, a version of that talk at the university club. I probably could have gotten rep by a speaker's bureau, you know, But like, I, it's just causes me a lot of stress, you know. We could, I, I, I have so many other threads to pull on, but I want to make sure yeah, I hope, I hope I'm not rambling by the way, feel like I'm being very self indulge.
I'm like, I keep, I keep finding things that I want to keep pulling on. One, one main topic that I would love to hear you speak on before we go into a couple quick rapid fire ones, and then we'll we'll get you outta here, is you mentioned as you are talking to some of these chefs, they'll bring up management and managing other people.
Mm-hmm. and people have their own styles. The environment certainly influences that sometimes, but again, common themes, lessons, takeaways that you've heard chefs talk about that could potentially be an interesting takeaway for the listener of interesting misconceptions or, or horror stories or obstacles that people had to overcome that ultimately you see them now.
Running effective organizations, what stands out? You know, the thing that probably, I love that question. The thing that stands out to me the most is something that, and he's been on the show, but we didn't talk about it, but Tim Hollingsworth, who has Otium restaurant in Los Angeles, had been the chef to cuisine at the French Laundry.
And right before he was the chef to cuisine, when he was a sous chef, he was the they call it the candidate for the United States at the Bocuse D'Or which is, and that was the year I wrote a book about the Bocuse D'Or And so Tim and I got to be and have remained friends, [01:10:00] and he didn't, he had never met me when I got the, that book sold.
And he was, he was so nice to me and gave me incredible access. And you know, they changed the menu at the French Laundry every day. And . I was talking to him about the way he talked to the cooks and he, and I've since heard other people say this. Maybe people have said it on the show, but I don't know if they had, But in short, what he, and he didn't use these terms, but basically it was the chef as like your dream coach in a movie that he spoke differently to everyone in the kitchen.
Right. Right, right, right. Got it. And and one example was there was a guy in the kitchen of Asian American, I wanna say Korean American, but to be honest, it's been a long, I'm not sure, it's been more than 10 years. And I didn't know that, I never interviewed this person, but there was a dish they were gonna put on the menu and it involved a broth.
And this is for one day. Right. And Tim knew that this cook personally was really into tea. And when he was telling the guy how to make this broth, he was like, Do this, do and steep it like the way you would do a so and so tea. Right. That's a direction that wouldn't have meant anything to anyone else in that kitchen, at least as far as Tim knew.
Right. And he said this thing to me that he you know, tried to take each cook on their own terms and to give them direction in a way that would be most useful to them. Right. And that was a revelation to me. And you know, I think that same notion, and this is something that I think people have talked about on my, my show a little bit, but I, it's more stuff I've just.
Talk to people about when we're just shooting the [01:12:00] breeze, which, which is, you know, different people respond to different stimulus and, and or stimuli. And so, you know there are, there are people who do best with a very gentle nudge, . You know, we are living in a time now, and just so I'm clear, I think this is a good thing where, you know, we're trying to have kinder, gentler kitchens.
There are people who need to feel urgency, you know, behind a, an instruction. There are people who, that would be cr if you look at them funny, they're crushed, you know, you know, I, I'm waiting to get the hate mail about this. I, I've said it in multiple interviews and it hasn't happened yet, but there are, frankly, I mean, we're, where are we at here?
We're on 31st Street. Yeah. In New York City. Okay. So less than 10 blocks south of here is Eleven Madison Park. That kitchen, to this day, I don't think I'm revealing. Trade secrets is pretty intense. Well, guess what? That's still a hard kitchen to get into, and there are still plenty of people. I mean, you cooked in per se.
There are still people who want to get pushed like that. They, I get the dms every week. I Which ones? The, the not, not the bad ones. The I that people get off on that. No, no. Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm in a small town in Oklahoma working at a little tiny Burger Tavern. , it would shoot me over the moon to get pushed in the way that I see Eleven Madison Park executing right now.
That's, like I said, I, I, I, I, I don't know how I would be talking about this in a different era, but right now there's an extreme shortage of, of culinary professionals, and I have been very vocal that you knower recently, LA did a piece about Jordan Con mm-hmm. . And the opposite of the piece is sometimes Jordan Conn is temperamental and maybe not the most accommodating guy.
And, [01:14:00] and I don't know why I read that piece. I don't know why that piece exists. Nobody has to work for Jordan Conn. They weren't, they weren't saying he was like hitting people, you know, or like. . Okay. He's a hard ass, Don't work for him. Yeah. There's restaurants in LA that'll pay you a a, a a hiring bonus right now, you know, like if, but if you want to go work in a super demanding environment where people are shelling out upwards of $800 for their dinner and expecting perfection, and, and the person who's the chef owner is gonna try to meet that expectation with every dish that goes outta the kitchen, it's gonna get a little heated.
That's not for everybody, but I don't, unless there are certain lines that get crossed, I don't consider it. You know, I, I've heard good counter arguments to this, right? Like, I saw Eric Ripert interviewed you know, and Eric's a practicing Buddhist, and he's gone through his own evolution on this, and he's talked about it very openly.
But he was like, you know, you see people flying airplanes and they're not screaming at their copilots. You know, but they managed to land the plane. And I'm like, okay. That is hard to argue with. That's a great, if we were in a debate, he wins the debate. Right? It's hard to justify it. Nonetheless, there are people, I have friends you do too, probably.
They look back on those days as like, it was, it was, it was a trial by fire. They got through it, it made them the cooks. They are, they don't manage their own people like that. But they will tell you that a a lot of people, you know, And like I said, like every time I do an interview like this, and I say this, I'm like bracing for like the hate mail.
I'm not exaggerating when I tell you it's, you know, again, I'm gonna knock on what, and if somebody wants to debate me, I'll, I'm happy to talk about it. I'm not saying I advocated or that's how I would want to be if I were a. . I just know that there are people who wanna be tested that way, the way they were tested by like their high school [01:16:00] football coach, you know, Well, we talk about this, they want that person going like, you know, gimme 20.
Right. You know, they want that. Right. Well, we talk about this rebellious side of, of chefs. I mean, I'm literally talking to the guy who wrote, who wrote a book about it. But it's, it's, it's this idea of the rebellion when you're tasked with something can often come through in a way. And, and I was talking with someone this morning literally about this, how it comes from the other side too, from the cook side.
It's like, if, if the only time that you will shift into that gear is when you're getting screamed at, that's also not good. Right? Cause now you are providing this feedback mechanism to your manager of like, Well, Justin has that gear. I just have to scream at him to do it. It's like, that's also not, you know what I mean?
That that feeds this u and, and you know, it, it's not how much of that is fueled by me actually j being genuinely scared and like, then I'm, you know, But, but I have worked with people where if there isn't this significant amount of negative reinforcement, there's this, again, this kind of pushback towards, listen where I like to think we've gotten is that I, I'd like to think we are out of the era, and I'm not naive enough to think this is true a hundred percent.
Mm-hmm. , where
like a chef just comes into the kitchen and that's their default mode. Right. I like to think we're out of that era. Mm-hmm. , I like to think we're in an era. And even Eric, I did interview Eric once on this subject, not for the, my podcast, but just for a blog post I did. And you know, he said, Look, there's still times where I'll get a little upset, but the difference is now, you know, it's, it's a rarity and I apologize at the end of the night.
You know, I'd like to think that's where we are. I like to think we're at okay if, if, if the team is not coming through or there's a weak link and people need, no pun intended to fire lid under them, someone's going to [01:18:00] do that. You know, and then maybe they'll talk about it at the end of the night. You know, I, I, I, I, I, my impression is we're, we're more in that mode now than we were 20 years ago.
Right. And, you know, I, I've said this forever and, and, and, you know, I think, I don't think it's a bad thing that everyone has a, a camera. In their pocket. I don't, I think it helps keep people in positions of authority in line, you know? And but a lot of the stuff I hear presented as like, you know, scorched earth level transgressions.
To me, and this may just be a generational difference, and I'm always quick to say this, it's like a almost a, it's like a refrain on my show and I say it to older friends of mine all the time. Things change. Mm-hmm. , it's the nature of things to change. I think it'd be great if no one ever got a sh had a chef be mad at them again, ever.
I think that would be great. I don't think that's probably realistic, but, you know, there's people, I, there's people I know who I think probably have never yelled at a cook. You know, my friend David Waltuck, who had Chanterelle restaurant for 30 years, you know, even back in the day used to say, you know, I don't believe it.
Yelling at people, the bitterness gets into the food. Mm-hmm. , that was like his line. Interesting. Right. And David's a very gentle guy. Now, I don't know, did he ever yell at someone?
Detached audio: Maybe he did.
Justin: I wrote a cookbook with him. I spent a year hanging around that restaurant. I never saw it. You know, and I've seen people yell in a way that would, you know, raise the hair on the back of your neck.
You know, Like, like I was once having dinner at a, at a very upscale restaurant in New York, and my son at the time was maybe five, and I was taking him to go to the bathroom, and we took a shortcut through the kitchen. And when we were coming back, the chef was like, screaming at a cook and it froze. My son frozen.
Wow. Like, you, And I'm like, you know, I became, I was like, Nothing to see here. Come on. You know, like, rushed them out, you know? I know it [01:20:00] still happens. I don't think it's, I, I don't think it's a good thing. But I mean, you were talking about the management thing. I, I don't know. I think everyone finds their own balance.
I think kitchens find their own. Rhythm and, and tone and temperature. But I think, I think some version of that thing Tim showed me, I, I've always believed that that was, you know, how to get the best out of each person. Contextually. Yeah. But also just who responds to what, I mean, i, I, I think it ought to be possible to have a kitchen.
I mean, this is like a tangent we don't have time for, but like, you know, I mean, how much of this boils down to the, the, the, the, the, the lousy you know, chickens are coming home to roost, financial model of restaurants. Like if there were more bodies in a kitchen, Right. There wouldn't be so much pressure.
You wouldn't have pressure. Totally, totally. Like all the pressure comes from getting this, You feel more resource. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. , you know, and, and, and that whole situation, and it's not the industry's fault, but I, you know, I often feel like the industry takes a position of, like, this was done to us when, in fact, I'm sorry, the entire industry collectively kicked the need for price increases, kicked that can down the road for decades.
Until it broke, until the system broke. And now any increase that will make up that ground, I'm speaking in shorthand, but I think your listeners and viewers will understand what I mean. The amount that you would have to increase prices to close that gap now will cause sticker shock. It could be a punch to the gut.
And even I, like I have friends, I don't you know he talks very openly about it. You know, David Nael? Mm-hmm. , who has K fico in San Francisco, former 11 Medicine Park guy. , he's been very outspoken. He's, he's written with the help of a collaborator, a couple of pieces for Business Insider about the neat things that have to change in the industry.
Started doing this during Covid and he said straight up, like his prices coming outta Covid were gonna go up. I think he said like [01:22:00] 40%. And I think he actually, there was just a big piece in the Chronicle about his restaurant. I dunno if he went up that high. He may have gone high, I don't know. But he, you know, when Amanda Cohen reopened dirt candy full on Tasty menu again, on the, you know, she did a thing on Instagram saying, Okay, all you people who've been saying you wanna support restaurants, you know, we've increased our prices.
I think it was 30%. Mm-hmm. , that sounds right. Now it's time to, you know, walk the walk and come in and, and dine here. You know? And she did that while maintaining, you know, that, that they don't tip, That's a non tipping restaurant. She's managed to make that work. Most people have failed at that. You know I'm full of admiration for these people.
Mm-hmm. , But it's hard. The game from the jump is, is is hard. Right? Like if , if it was just a case of just cracking the code, someone would've figured it out by now and they would be super open with sharing it. Chefs aren't, you know, that protective of, you know, like if I weren't gonna become a chef right now, you know what I would be doing?
I would be, I would be, I would be a permanent popup chef Uhhuh. I would be try to build up a name to the point where I could charge top dollar. And whether I found a vacant space and did like my own res, you know, got a deal on it for three months in, in a city where I hadn't operated yet, or whether it was like one night o or two nights only at a host restaurant or at a.
and I would try to build, you know, like the, like the circus is coming to town, you know, and I would, I would try to make a living at that. I honestly would try to have very few employees. I would, I, This is doesn't make sense you Yeah, yeah. You know better than I do. Well, I, I, But that seems appealing to me.
Sure. I went on this rant the other day talking about how people think that popups are so cool because you make all this money in one day when in reality, like, you, you pop up on Saturday, but it's Tuesday through Saturday of gearing up for, you know, So you need to make sure that, and, and it, it works if you plan for it.
That there's a great [01:24:00] example of these two guys out of LA there, there, Marcus j Mark and Robert Sandberg. Marcus was at Avi for a while. Mm-hmm. , then he was at Franson. Yep. And then that's where he met Robert and, and now they're in la They're starting a project called Habit Chew, H A B I T U E. And how they're starting is their, it's a 12 top booking.
I think. It's either at their house, one of their houses, or they come to your house and they cook. 12 people. It's, it's, it's one button on the website you can click and book it and it's 15 grand for 12 people. And that's how they're going to kind of develop their menu and get a following. And, you know, that's, that's, that's an expensive night.
But in a city like LA for people who helped get a Swedish chef from two stars to three stars, you know, that's a, that's a compelling story. And they're sourcing some really incredible product. And their execution obviously is off the charts. But that I think is an interesting kind of place to end, at least this part of the conversation.
I wanna, I wanna, I want to get to some rapid fires. Cause I'm so curious. Your answers, they don't, they don't have to be rapid fire answers, but what's one thing you've changed your mind on in recent memory about the industry? Anything could be, We haven't even talked about tennis yet. like, are you a tennis fan?
I know this, Yeah. Oh, do you play? I, I, I, My, my high school was too small to have a tennis team, and so I taught myself how to play and I, I'm in a doubles league right now. I played Wow. Throughout the summer. Also cried, went to see Fed leave. Well, I mean, the thing that I probably most recently changed my mind on is, is you know, watching all the Feder think pieces and stuff, Uhhuh, Uhhuh because, you know, he has fewer slams now than, than than Nadal and, and Jovi.
But I, I've become convinced that he actually is probably the most important tennis player ever. Agreed. A hundred percent. The way he carried himself, the way he played the game. And you didn't think that previously. Or you, I was more about the numbers keeping track of different metrics.
Mm-hmm. understood. Yeah. But I think Roger is single. I also feel like he's the Pace car. [01:26:00] You know, I, I, I was talking to a friend the other day and I was like, you know, if, if Feder weren't there, if Joe Gich and Na Doll were, I mean this is real inside tennis for people who are listening, but you know, if Joovy and Nadal to win Grand Slam titles had to beat and no, these are all great players.
Right. But had to beat Thomas Burdick or Marcus Bagdad or Annie Murray. Well, Murray was, but still sure they probably could have slept in a couple more days. Ah, you know, but they had to make themselves, they had to squeeze every ounce of talent outta their bodies. Mm-hmm. . And I think that all started with Roger.
I mean, when Sampers retired, Everybody was like, Oh, who knows when someone will approach this record? And these guys are all, at least six majors ahead of him. Within the industry, to be honest. I, I'll tell you something I've changed my mind on and I actually am about to see if they'll come on the show and talk about it.
Some, some of the people who've been doing this you know, there was a piece written on the West Coast I don't understand it, but there was like a period of time where like, it was like journalistic hunting season on Jessica Colo. Okay. You know, who has Squirrel. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . You know, there was the jam thing and yeah, whatever.
And, but then there was also this thing, like there was a piece written where it was like, she doesn't credit her cooks for their ideas. Like she, she always gives them credit in Instagram posts and cookbook head notes. And, and I'm like, wait a minute. That's everybody. Nobody does that. Who credits their, their cooks like on a menu.
And honestly, there were all these people quoted. It was an eater piece who I, I honestly, if I had a place to write it, somebody, I would love for somebody to go do it. Like go check up on all the people who trashed her in that article and see if they're crediting their cooks. Cuz I don't think any of them are, Ooh.
I don't think any of them are. And [01:28:00] recently Callo was on my show and you know, returning guest and we were talking about this and, and he, and I was like, like to me it, I love the idea of it. You know, the flaw in it to me had been like, well, let's say you have a CO who has a dish on the menu, and it's the one clunker, and it's the one that gets singled out by the critic.
Right? Are you gonna throw that person under the bus? Is the critic gonna make a point of identifying that person who you gave like the spotlight to? Having said that and I mentioned her in this interview, Amanda Cohen has started doing this at her restaurant and good for her, you know, and, and somebody else I think I saw recently is doing it.
I noticed during c I went made at Grammarcy Tavern, this was before Mike had appointed Aita, who's currently the chef to cuisine there. I don't know if there was another, there, maybe there was a chef to cuisine. I don't know. It was in the first year of Covid. I was eating outside, but Mike at the bottom of the menu had put like just the team, you know, And I, you know, it involves a certain amount of updating of menus and stuff, but I, I think that's actually kind of cool.
I've changed, I'm changing my mind quickly. I'm very eager. I mean, I'm sure I've made the call before this drops, but I'm, I'm planning to reach out to Amanda Got it. To see if like she and maybe one or two of the people she's credited would do like a little round table talk with me. Cuz I'm curious to know what made her do it.
And I'm curious to know what it means to those cooks. Right. But industry wise, so my answers are feder and discredit. Interesting. But I think why not? Yeah, why not? I think, I think if you can do it in a way that Protects the cooks from this one concern I mentioned. But you know what, okay, maybe you designed a clunker and you got credit for it, and maybe you're gonna take a knock in, in the, in the, in the times in a review you'll live.
Mm-hmm. , you're gonna have to do that when you're a chef in your own right. Have your own restaurant. Brings us [01:30:00] all the way back to where we started. So maybe that's part of the learning curve. I don't know. I, I, but I am changing my mind about that being viable and not mandatory. But if chefs feel the, you know, accepted if more, more normal, more, more part of the mix, You know, there are chefs who I know believe that's not a given, but as I, I say it all the time, things change.
I think once I'm 55 now. Right? I think once you stop accepting change, that is when you start becoming old. You know? I think you have to accept it in everything. Life, culture. Society dress codes, like you gotta accept things cha, you're not gonna be the one to stop the tide. Yeah. So you may as well roll with it.
So, yeah. But that's the thing that I feel like recent in the, in recent memory that I've been most probably wrong about, and I'm happy to admit that it's a Saturday morning, your first day of your weekend, and you kind of stumble into your kitchen and you're making eggs for yourself. How do you make those eggs
Gosh, I
probably only ever really scramble eggs.
Justin: Once in a while I'll fry an egg and slide it over like a bowl of chili or cacho pep or something like that. But more often than not I scramble eggs u using Julia Child's omelet method. Interesting. Yeah. So you know, whatever olive butter.
In the pan beat the eggs, usually add just a splash of water or milk. Get the pan nice and hot eggs in. And then I gradually with a spatula, pull in to the center so that the, the un uncooked part reaches the outside the edges and you get like a really nice, fluffy uniform. It's easy to go, well done.
If, for example, in my case, somebody wants in that way, like my wife, my wife's the same. And then the other thing I will do once in a while, and it's maybe, I think it's the only like very identifiably Jewish thing. I probably like, we're [01:32:00] here the day after Russia show. Like, I, I didn't do, I don't, I don't celebrate, observe, whatever and nothing.
But I am a sucker for Locke, eggs and onion. So once in a while I al I keep smoke salmon at home. Mm-hmm. , I love smoke salmon. Mm-hmm. . And I get acme smoke salmon from Brooklyn, and once in a while I will have I'll do Huggins Locke eggs and onions, which is for people who don't know, it's just scrambled eggs.
Well, you saute the young onions first and then the eggs. And then at the last second I throw in some sliced salmon, just enough to warm it. And I just, Oh my God. Sounds delicious. I absolutely love that. Once in a blue moon, I'll just feel the, the, or my ancestors come bubbling up . What else, As someone who, who's so book focused, is there a book that's been particularly impactful for you in your career?
It can be about food, it can be about writing. Oh God. Yeah, I mean several I mean, chef's drugs in rock and roll was 100% my desire to do for chefs what Peter Biskin did for the American film directors of that same time period in a book called Easy Writers Raging Bulls which is a book about how old Hollywood became new Hollywood.
And it's kind of the origin story of like Spielberg and Scorsese and Kala and De Palma. And it's roughly the, it's almost the exact same time period as my book. It ends a little sooner. I mean there were other books in that lane, but my North Star was that book. And actually it was a funny moment cuz I went to interview Ruth Reich.
She lives up town upstate, and I went up there and I know that Peter Biskin lives up there. And I know that they knew each other somehow. I don't know why. And we interviewed at Zach Pachios restaurant called Back Bar, and we, it was drizzling outside. We came out onto the street and Ruth goes, Oh Peter.
And it was Peter Biskind [01:34:00] and it is the selfie I most regret not taking in my life. Ooh. Didn't even occur to me, but I considered that like, and I'm not someone who says this kind of thing. I took it as a sign. Wow. I was like, that is amazing. I just interviewed like the queen Bee of, you know, that era of food journalism.
And here's this guy whose book I re, I reread that book like once a year. I, I used to be in the film business. I love that book. He's a little more bold than I am. He, I, I had, I could have put stories as salacious as the ones he puts in his book. I, I, I, I'm not that guy. Mm-hmm. , you know, like there's what's in publishing is called the Legal Read.
So like you turn in your book and you know, you have an editor and a copy editor, but then there's a legal read, especially with anything historical where there like, and, and so like, for example, there are very well known chefs who, like three or four people told me on the record, like cocaine stories about them, but they wouldn't talk to me about it.
Got it. And I can't do it. I now respect the Oh, okay. Are we outta juice? Yeah. We're okay. We're we, we got this one. Oh, we're good. So the like with that, the number of people I had on the record saying that stuff, the lawyers would've cleared it. I know I didn't talk to them about it, but I've been through enough legal reads.
I'm not, I can't, These people have grandkid. Like I'm not, And it's also like, as I like to say, I'm not covering like nuclear weapon proliferation. I'm writing about cooks. I get it. You know, and it's a world I love. And I very strategically picked a very wholesome restaurant to put at the center of my next book.
You know, it's a restaurant called Wherewithal, which is run by Beverly Kim and her husband and, and co chef and co-owner Johnny Clark. They have another restaurant that's been around much longer, that's more well known called Parachute in Chicago. Yep. And Beverly and Johnny and the team at Wherewithal are the, are at the center of my next [01:36:00] book.
And, you know, I didn't, there was nothing there that I had to feel like, Oh, am I being a wishy washy journalist by leaving this out cuz they'd run a clean ship, You know, so the drama comes from elsewhere in that book. But yeah. Last question for you. Sure. You somehow get a call right after this interview that you've won an all expenses paid trip to eat at your dream restaurant
And when you get there, there's someone you've always wanted to speak with, waiting to have dinner with you. Who is that restaurant and who is that? What is that restaurant and who is that person? And this is in the realm of the possible I, So these are restaurants that are currently exist and people who are currently alive.
I like to add, if, if it would make it apic answer it can be living or dead on the restaurant in person side too. Cuz it's just interesting for me to hear, I mean, the two restaurants I wrote about in Chef Strokes in Rock and Roll that I always, that I, I'd never got to experience and I was alive, but I just, I was a dope from Florida who didn't know food.
I mean, I didn't know anything. I came to New York for college. So the first thing that comes to mind is the quilted giraffe, which was the, you know, one of the, it was one of the the, one of the very first American run kitchens to earn four stars from the New York Times. , it was the height of opulence in New York City.
It was run by a couple Barry Wine and his now ex-wife Susan. A lot of amazing talent be David Kin started there. Yep. I mean, among many other people. And I've always wanted to eat there. Me too. and I probably, I was gonna say Warren Beatty because I keep hearing stories from that era about Warren.
I think Warren Beat is like this closet foodie that nobody realize. Like Warren Beat shows up in a lot of my interviews. Like people tell me stories like he went to in it Little Washington years ago and was so taken with it. He ended up staying for three days. You know, like he used to be a regular at Doon, like his name comes up all the time.
But you know what, back in that time, you know who I would've liked to eat there with [01:38:00] Mayor Ed Kotch. Interesting. I would've liked to had. A meal with Ed Kotch at the quilted giraffe. What would you ask him? Oh my God. What made him get into politics? How a guy like him won an election for Mayor of New York.
What it was like you know, running against a young Mario Cuomo at one point you know, if the conversation went there, his personal life, which was always much kind of wondered about and, you know, his personal romantic life and, and all that stuff. I used to see him, I used to live at 88 Bleecker Street, which is between Broadway and Mercer.
Yep. And this was in the early days of the Angelica Movie Theater, which is still there. And I used to see Ed Kotch all the time cuz as a, you know, writer, I could go to matte and he would be there. Sometimes like, you know, on the popcorn line. . That's amazing. That's probably not the ultimate answer.
That's the first thing that comes to mind, I think. And then if I can cheat the other place I always wished I could have gone with Stars Uhhuh and Jeremiah Towers, Jeremiah Towers Landmark, San Francisco restaurant. Also a place that an unbelievable number of big names came out of. But to go to stars in a heyday yeah, I probably would've loved to do that.
I don't know who I would've eaten there with. Well, I mean, if we wanted to spice things up, I could've tried to eat there with Alice Waters. That would've been awesome. who did eat there a few times. Okay. You would not think that that was true, but she did. I remember when she told me that, when I interviewed her, I was surprised because their personal and professional breakup was so operatic and, and, and kind of poisonous, at least where Jeremiah was concerned.
But I don't know, maybe again, maybe the mayor, maybe maybe Willie Brown, the mayor at one point of you know, the very, very, very flamboyant mayor of, of San Francisco, entertaining guy. Or maybe, yeah, it would be some combina like, you know, Francis Ford Copala was a, a, a regular at Sheez Panis in the early days, you know, like going to Sheez Panis with him back then.
But it all involves some degree of time travel. [01:40:00] Yeah. I feel like most restaurants I'd want to go to now. I'm very lucky. I've, you, I've gone, you know, or, or I'm thinking about it. I mean, I've never been to r French Escano, you know, Masimo's restaurant. I could, it, you know, it feels available. I never ate at Elbow.
That's probably my biggest regret. That's my biggest one. Yeah. When people ask me about if you could go back in time and do a restaurant, you missed it also qu to giraffe Inbo. The closest I came was when Grant and Dave Barron did next. I went, I went to, I Flew just to go there. Me too. I had to, Yeah. I was a, it was a friend had a, had a four top booked and he was like, Hey, can you come to Chicago for 36 hours to eat it?
This? So we did, I did that. That's so funny. Yeah. I don't even think it was 36. Yeah. Yeah. Shorter than that. Yeah, too. Yeah. I mean, it such a, It was incredible. Yeah. Such a, such a institution, man. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it would be something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, or eating under, you know, crazy Mark going to Harvey's back in the day in London or something.
Like, just like over the top o you know, just opulence and, and you know, the stories about the wa to be honest, the wastefulness out of those kitchens. But the food, I'm sure was incredible. So Andrew, I could keep your, your, your, your, your mouth on the mic for another two hours. Honestly, this has been awesome.
I hope I didn't ram. I feel like I've been very self-indulgent, but No, no, not at all. It's nice. Good questions, . Thanks for having me. It's nice to be the guest to just show up. So yeah, thank you. I enjoyed it. Where can people find the book? The next book? Yes. Well, any of my book, I mean, my book, I'm very lucky.
My books have been from major publishers, so, you know well at this point, Chef STRs and Rock and Roll. You'd probably have to go to like an online seller. Maybe you'd find one copy in your local independent bookstore. But when my next book, which is called The Dish, comes out next June it's coming out from Mariner, which is a, an imprint of Harper Collins.
So it'll. Readily available in, in whatever bookstores they're still around and online [01:42:00] sites. Yeah, and I'll be traveling a little bit. I'll for sure be doing events in Chicago and New York. So keep an eye out for that and, and maybe, you know, I'll get to meet you and sign your book. Totally. Well thank you again for coming on the show and I'm excited to continue to, to get some great restaurant recommendations from you in your city.
Andrew's so fun to talk to because he's just a industry gusher, like he loves the restaurant scene, the chef scene, the creativity scene. He even talks about sports and I, I kind of teased it at the end there. I really wanted to talk with him more about tennis related things because he's not only played it himself, but he's such a die hard fan, and he's written about it too, and so he understands the sport, like a lot of people don't, and.
Kind of shared at the top of this interview, there are were lists of questions that I didn't get a chance to even touch, and so really hoping to get a part two with Andrew, especially as his book starts to come out. The thing that I wanted to add here at the end before we roll the outro, is just to keep an eye on Andrew on Instagram, and you can also go ahead and follow the Repertoire newsletter if you aren't subscribed already, because that's where I'll probably be announcing when Andrew's book goes live because I really wanna give you folks a.
He talked with me off mic on the details that are gonna be included inside of the book, and it just sounds like a project that I haven't seen people discuss in this way before. And so being able to bring that to you folks, especially if you geek out about food writing and chef stories and talking about purveyors and creativity, I think this will kind of tick a lot of boxes for you folks.
And so being able to get a heads up when that first drops, especially. I, I would love to have him on the show. I'd love to go on his show in the future, and so just keep an eye on all of that. It was really, really awesome to be able to finally get a chance to talk with Andrew. I hope you got some insight too.
If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to reach out on Instagram, on Twitter. I, I, I even share this at the bottom of most of the newsletters. If you respond to those emails, I see every single response that comes back from those, and so always eager to have a conversation with you folks.
Share this episode with a [01:44:00] friend. If it would be valuable. Leave a review on both. Podcast as well as Spotify. And that's it for me. Please roll the outro.
