Eneko Axpe | Gastrophysics, Delicious Sustainability and Wrestling Texture - Ep 159

Podcast

Dec 29

Episode Notes

Welcome to this episode of the podcast, where we will be discussing food sustainability and the restaurant industry. Our guest today is Eneko Axpe, a gastrophysicist who has been awarded one of the world's 50 Next Awards from San Pellegrino for his work in science innovation.

In this episode, we will be discussing Eneko's background in material sciences and physics, and how he has applied these principles to the culinary world. We will also be discussing his work in fine dining concepts, food manipulation, and finding textural opportunities in food.

We will also be talking about the importance of sustainability in the restaurant industry, and how Eneko is working to reduce the environmental impact of food production. This includes efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and water usage, as well as promoting the use of locally sourced ingredients.

So join us as we delve into the world of food sustainability and the restaurant industry with Eneko Axpe. Don't forget to check out our sponsor, Mees, for all your recipe organization needs. Sign up for a free account at getmeez.com/trp to get started.

Show Notes:

Eneko's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/eneko_axpe_/

We Are What We Eat Book: https://geni.us/we-are-what-we-eat

Omnivore's Dilemma Book: https://geni.us/omnivores-dilemma

We Are The Weather Book: https://geni.us/we-are-the-weather

Gastrophysics: The New Science of Eating: https://geni.us/JCWEUI2

Ole G. Mouritsen: https://food.ku.dk/english/staff/?pure=en/persons/19897

Eneko Atxa at Azurmendi: https://azurmendi.restaurant/en/

El Celler de Can Roca: https://cellercanroca.com/en/

Basque Culinary Center: https://geni.us/basque-culinary-center

Silo in the UK: https://silolondon.com/

Amass Closing: https://starwinelist.com/wine-story/amass-one-of-copenhagen-s-most-influential-restaurants-has-closed

Our World in Data: https://ourworldindata.org/

Harvard Course On Science & Cooking: https://www.edx.org/professional-certificate/harvardx-the-science-of-cooking

On Food & Cooking Book : https://geni.us/on-food-and-cooking

Modernist Cuisine Book: https://geni.us/modernist-cuisine

el Bulli Foundation: https://elbullifoundation.com/en/

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This episode’s transcript is auto-generated using software. Typos, misspellings, and errors might appear. If you have questions or fixes you’d like applied to this transcript, please reach out to hello@joinrepertoire.com.

[00:00:00]

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That's G E T M E E z.com. T R P T R P is for the Repertoire podcast. If you're early on in your career, this is one of the most impactful investments you can make while you're learning. Don't get behind like I did. And if you've been in the business for a while now, there's a massive upside to having all of your recipes stored safely in Mees having everything in one [00:02:00] place.

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And thanks again to MES for sponsoring this episode.

Justin Khanna: What is up folks? My guest today is Eneko Axpe. He is a gastrophysicist and, and the way that Eneko and I met and ultimately how he ended up come agreeing to come on my podcast is I ate by myself at Chef Table at Brooklyn Fair, the three Michelin starred tasting counter run by Cesar Ramirez and I, there was this.

Person who was just sitting next to me. The way that they grouped the entire counter was really smart. They had a bunch of people on one end that were together, a bunch of people on the other end that were together. And in the middle there was like three of us solo diners. And obviously when you're in such a long tasting menu and you're one of the weirdos that goes out to eat at one of these places by yourself, you end up connecting with the other people at the counter.

And Eneko, and I just started [00:03:00] talking, come to realize he was awarded one of the world's 50 Next Awards from San Pellegrino this year as a science innovator. He is based in both the Bay Area as well as Spain. And he's got a bunch of fascinating dot points to share when it comes to fine dining concepts, food manipulation, finding textural opportunities, and, and then ultimately converting those into delicious ideas.

A quick insight into an Eneko's bio. His path to the gastronomic industry is highly unusual. A. Physicist by training. He obtained a master's degree in material sciences as well as a PhD in physics. He was working for nasa, developing biomaterials to prevent and treat space flight induced bone loss in astronauts.

When a chance discovery led him down a different path learning that food production contributes to about 37% of human caused global greenhouse gas emissions. He became set on using his skills and knowledge to make a positive impact on the planet and combat climate change through food design.

Another point to hang Eneko's hat on, he joined forces with Chef Eneko Atxa. So another Eneko of World's 50 Best Restaurant and previous Sustainable [00:04:00] Restaurant Award winner, Azurmendi. So if you've ever heard of that restaurant in Spain, someone who's behind the scenes working tirelessly to make. Food is spectacular, is our guest today.

So I'm gonna kind of get outta the way here. I'm gonna let Eneko educate us on all things gastrophysics, on texture, on manipulation and sustainability in food.

And if you've spent time in multiple restaurants [00:05:00] yourself or even gotten inspired by cookbooks on your day off, you probably. What I mean, and if that's the case, you should try Mees. Over the next few weeks, I'll be using their absolutely free tier of their recipe organization software to start consolidating everything that I have.

That's my entire catalog into this incredibly powerful recipe tool. It's designed by chefs. Four chefs, and after having Josh Sharkey the founder on this very podcast, a few weeks back, I knew this product was legit. So what Mees does is it transforms your recipe content into powerfully digital formats that let you organize, scale, train, and cost like never before.

That's G E T M E E z.com. [00:06:00] T R P T R P is for the Repertoire podcast. If you're early on in your career, this is one of the most impactful investments you can make while you're learning. Don't get behind like I did. And if you've been in the business for a while now, there's a massive upside to having all of your recipes stored safely in Mees having everything in one place.

And thanks again to MES for sponsoring this episode.

Justin Khanna: When I was in culinary school, I don't think I've told you this story yet.

They would always do this thing where they would share with all of us the possible jobs that we can get into after we graduate. And, and I gotta say, I haven't met that many people who actually did that, who broke the mold and went beyond the typical, like restaurant chef or cafe owner or caterer. And [00:07:00] so Eneko to, to just welcome you to the show and just get a sense of what you do, what in the world is it that you do?

What is a gastrophysicist and how do you describe the work that you do in the culinary arts?

Eneko Axpe: Absolutely. First of all, Justin, thank you so much. It's awesome to be here. Yeah, I, I followed you on ig and you do great stuff. So, yeah, thanks for the invite gastrophysics. Yeah. A lot of people ask me, what is gastrophysics? Some people think that it is just like, you know, like a new trendy term that is not useful at all, but it's quite the opposite.

I will say it is something that is really new. It has very, you know, few years. Everything has started like few decades ago. It's very, very interdisciplinary. And it uses the principles of physics, so it uses physics and then culinary sciences.

Justin Khanna: Question, do you find that most culinary science tends to be more chemistry than [00:08:00] physics? Is that, is that where the gastrophysics part comes in?

the-repertoire-podca_eneko-axpe-interview_eneko_axpe-a30ytk2vo_2022-nov-30-2013pm-utc-riverside-002: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. If you if you talk to any food scientist a lot of the stuff they do is chemistry actually. But physics is not something that is usually, or commonly taught. Like maybe they have like one or two things. I've seen things, for example, in this course in Harvard. Science and cooking, I believe it is the name.

And they, they have something maybe because David Weitz, which is very well known physicist in Harvard, is one of the teachers in this course. Maybe that's why they, they, they have some physics going on in that course, but it's not common. I've seen other places like the Basque culinary center where they try to, you know teach about physics and how important is physics to, you know, do new stuff and understanding stuff in gastronomy.

To me physics has been and I don't know why forgotten in gastronomy biology, biochemistry, [00:09:00] chemistry has been, they have been quite important. Physics though, you find very few places where they teach physics. I will say the Basque Culinary center is an exception.

The science and cooking course in Harvard as well, and then Denmark. In Denmark, they have many gastrophysics courses and astrophysicists as well doing awesome jobs. I can give you some examples

V: How does an astrophysicist play in a sceenario?

Justin Khanna: Please. I was, that was actually gonna be my next question of if there's a problem that exists. Having a gastrophysicist come in to solve, it usually involves what? Like, can you give me some examples of like those problems that get solved with the help of someone in a role like

yours?

Eneko Axpe: The most immediate one is texture. Cause at the end of the day, what, during gastronomy call texture, we call them mechanical properties or physical properties. And this is something that is very important in, in mechanics, for example, in physics. So in my case, for example, I've been always [00:10:00] passionate about gastronomy, but my job wasn't necessarily linked to gastronomy at all.

But I was studying the mechanical properties of tissues. Like human tissues. Like muscles, bones. In this case, I was working at nasa. And Stanford University you know, like doing research on the mechanical properties of hydrogels on the mechanical properties of bone in astronauts physical properties of different biological materials.

When, when, you know, we got this call in, in the engineering department to Stanford asking for physicists for beyond meat in this case because they realized that food scientists, they don't have the the physics that they need to develop new textures. Cause at the end of the day, something I realized when you are trying.

To for example, make meat out of plants. Flavor is important and is difficult. Color and [00:11:00] the transition of color when you cook plant-based meat is important and it's difficult. But by far the most difficult thing to mimic is texture. And texture at the end of the day is physics, is physical properties, mechanical properties of, of the scaffold of the material that you are making with plants in this case.

So what I did myself was to put all the knowledge I, you know previously got in physics and mechanical properties and put them at work for something that, in this case was biological material, but edible material in this case. And that's how everything started for me.

Justin Khanna: So it, it, it, like, keep going on that because it's like, is it a situation of you staring at a computer screen with a bunch of equations? Do you have like digital models that you're plugging these things into? Are you just having a bunch of people chew on stuff? Like, tell us how this works.

Eneko Axpe: Yeah, absolutely. So something really [00:12:00] cool with physicists can do is to avoid all the trial and error that happen in, in kitchens. So basically when you wanna, you know, have property A or texture B, let's say you basically do trial and error, you put more of, more of this and less of that until you come up with a recipe that you know has the texture you want.

What we can do is to build predictive models. So basically, based on data that we get in the lab, we can say, okay, if you put this amount of X, you will get this texture that, that you want. So we basically accelerate this culinary processes. We obviously do it faster cheaper because at the end of the day, you put in a lot of, you know, I mean, cost is higher the longer it takes.

So that is something very useful that we can do physicists in culinary sciences. But another thing is lab work as well. So not only like you [00:13:00] know, theoretical theories, but also lab work. Like, for example I measure the mechanical properties of meat, of different meat products and then compare them.

to the, the products we've been making. And then from there you see where your material is different to the, to the, to the animal meat. And then you, you know, you, once you come back from the lab with this data, then you can think on, in a plan of attack, okay, we are failing in this mechanical property or in this other mechanical property.

So we will need more of this and that to improve it. And when I say mechanical properties at the end of the day, I, I'm talking about textures, however, we do it in a very quote unquote, sophisticated way cause we can actually measure it. This being said, at the end of the day is the customer who says, if something is good or bad.

So you need the machines. Yes, you need the lab. Yes. [00:14:00] But at the end you, you need the people to say, I like this texture, or I dislike it. And, and that's the most expensive thing at the end of the day when you need, you know, hundreds, thousands of people saying, I like this more versus this other you need to put a lot of money in the table.

What we physicists do is to accelerate that and instead of, you know, doing this, you, working with real humans three times. Maybe you just need them once. So you're reducing costs as well. Yep.

Justin Khanna: So for you, success coming out of a project or a consulting session, or however you want to phrase it,

might be a better predictive model. It might be a new product, it might be a way to connect dots together.

Am I, am I saying that right?

Eneko Axpe: Yes,

Justin Khanna: get a sense of what you consider to be a positive outcome from

working with.

Eneko Axpe: Sometimes it is a brand new product, like something that is very new. Like for example, it can be to understand the physics of [00:15:00] how fat and lean meat are put together in nature. So you need someone that understands that so you can mimic that in a plant-based whatever it is. So that is, and, and that can bring I mean you can put that at work and, and come up with new ideas for new products.

So sometimes, the, the results are mind blowing and you can, and, and you just, you are just using physics to develop something brand new and yeah, that, that is, that it can be also applied to high end cuisine. Sometimes chefs call me saying, Hey, like, I'm struggling to get this texture that I wanna have in this dish.

How can I get this texture done? And then I, I sit down with the chef, okay, what is exactly what you need? And then I come up with a plan of attack, usually using physics

Justin Khanna: Can, can you, can you brag a little bit for us on the chefs that you work with? Cuz like, you're, you're, [00:16:00] you're saying like this is just some boring person in a, in an office, but like you work with some of the best chefs in the world. So can you, can you share maybe some stories about those conversations?

Eneko Axpe: absolutely. I've been, I've been really lucky. And I, I, so the, the person I work with a lot is Eneko Atxa. He has five Michelin stars at the moment. So he has the Azurmendi restaurant with three Michelin stars, and then he has two other restaurants with one Michelin star each. And he's great. We have, become friends and, and we work together in, in different things.

Mainly developing new products, but also sustainable products. He's, he also has a green Michelin Star. He has been awarded many, many times with the more sustainable restaurant in the world. So what I do myself is to develop new strategies to come up with. Sustainable products.

In this case, for example we just published a scientific paper last [00:17:00] week. This was with a one of my master's students in the Basque Culinary Center. What we did was we realized that you know, we all know that waste is a problem. One third of the food that is produced is wasted, and we have a huge problem with bread.

In America it is not very common to have a piece of bread next to your dish. But in many places, including in Spain, you always eat with a piece of bread. So, for a restaurant controlling how much bread will be consumed during the day is. , it's a struggle. So a lot of this bread is wasted at the end of the day.

So what we wanted to do is to develop a carbonated drink, a beverage non-alcoholic by using bread for the first time. So we cause for alcoholic beverages. You have Kvass, which is a traditional Russian drink, for example, but we wanted something non-alcoholic but carbonated at the same time. So with bubbles, and we developed from the scratch a six [00:18:00] different beverages, six different drinks.

And then we did a consumer study and we came up with one that it was really, really good that people really enjoyed. So now we have a formula if you wish. To get all that bread, quote unquote bread waste and, and make it a drink that you can serve next day or next month if you, if you want. And we put it out there, we made it public so other restaurants can, can do the same.

So that's what we want for, for everyone out there to, to use the, their bread waste and do awesome and, and really enjoyable drinks that will, you know make your, your, your, you know, the people going to your restaurant happy because it's drinking something delicious that will be, you know thrown away if you wouldn't do that drink.

So yeah, we, I'm, I'm, I'm very lucky to work with Eneko. I've, I have projects with other Michelin star restaurants. Mostly in Spain. I work with two other [00:19:00] chefs and, and we are working in future projects. But my main guy is Eneko Atxa Yeah,

Justin Khanna: There's so many threads to pull on there, and I, I, I have them all stored. So for the listener, we're gonna get to all of it. But if someone's listening right now and they're saying, Eneko. That sounds fascinating. I would like to be a gastrophysicist. Or if someone just by the nature of the internet stumbled upon this episode and is like, holy cow, there's a thing called a gastrophysicist.

That's so interesting. Where do you recommend people start? Because it sounds like you need culinary experience. You need physics experience. You kind of need some sort of like a consulting background cuz you're working with people one-on-one or consulting for these larger brands. Where do people even start if they want to go down the path that, that you've gone down.

Eneko Axpe: Yeah, I recommend the book that is called gastrophysics, the New Science of Eating. This is by a gastrophysicist that I really like. That is Charles Spence he's not a physicist by background, like me. He's [00:20:00] a psychologist, but he was one of the pioneers. And then there is another book by Ole (Romer) o l e.

He's an amazing, amazing physicist Danish. And he also has a, another book in gastrophysics. And I recommend that one. And I also recommend a paper that is called gastrophysics, A new scientific approach to Eating. So those three I will recommend Charles Spence book.

Both are called gastrophysics. And then this third paper, I will start from there. Yeah. it's really interesting stuff. You don't necessarily need to be a physicist to understand the concepts in gastrophysics. You can be a chef you can be just, you know, someone interested in gastronomy, cause you will learn really, really cool stuff.

For example, the sound. Of food cause sound of the day at the end of the in the end of the day is just a mechanical wave. So that can be also explained with [00:21:00] physics. So, and I won't do any spoilers. He explains in this book how to get the best sound in a food. So he puts an example of a food and a treatment you need to do to this food to get an amazing crunchy sound.

And no spoilers get the book cause it is definitely worth it. Yeah.

Justin Khanna: And so I guess getting really practical about your work, are you like, do you have your own. Business are, do you come in technically as an employee for some of these companies when you're working on these projects? Is there like a lab that you're a part of? I guess kind of like if someone's thinking about the practical implications of like, cool, this guy does interesting work, but how do I can, how can I make this my profession?

Like how can I make this

into my career?

How do you think about that?

Eneko Axpe: yeah. So in my case as I said, I was just a physicist that was passionate about the gastronomy. I [00:22:00] remember when I was I don't know, maybe like 16 or 17 years old. I had my first job , I'm from a humble family, so I need to work in, in a club. As a waiter, and I remember saving some money to go, to a Michelin Star restaurant here in Bilbao called Mina.

Still my favorite restaurant in Bilbao. And, and it blew my mind, but it blew my mind, not as a someone eating it blew my mind as a scientist. Cause I was already, you know, I was only 17 high school, very interested in physics, very interested in gastronomy. So I never thought that I will bring together these two worlds at some point.

But from there I got a PhD in physics. I moved to Oxford, then to Cambridge. I, I was teaching mechanics in, in the University of Cambridge, and then I moved to NASA and Stanford. And in California is when I started working. For the first time, I did an internship in Beyond Meat. I was the first physicist.

And then I got hired by Impossible Foods. [00:23:00] And, and I was working in different meat products. My team was the texture analytics team. That was my main team. And then I've been working as a consultant for all these you know, high end Cusine chefs.

And that's how I've been doing it so far. But if someone wants to be an actual gastrophysicist, what I would recommend myself is a to get a, you know, it, it can be a food scientist or a physicist, even a neuropsychologist, and then do a master or a PhD. In, in gastrophysics. Cause there is, you cannot be a gastrophysicist per se.

You need to, you know, do a master's or a PhD or even, you know, like you don't need a diploma to do like crazy gastrophysics. At the end of the day. I've seen crazy textures. I've seen crazy products of people that are not necessarily physicists, but they understand the, the [00:24:00] science and the physics behind a food product.

And they developed crazy dishes like crazy. I was in, in Denmark last week. I went to the Alchemist.

Justin Khanna: Yes.

Eneko Axpe: Let me tell you something that really blew my mind. The chef of Alchemist was there and at some point in this half dome, they have, they switched on like some crazy lights and you had all the service like marching, like an army with like a drink in their hands.

And all of a sudden they switch off the lights, boom, and the lights start lighting. And it blew my mind. It was like, how is this possible? Well, it turns out they studied for three years, they had many scientists working on this project for three years. To get a protein from a jellyfish that glows in the dark and they try to get this protein, then see if it is edible or [00:25:00] not.

Then, you know, like they, they had this crazy scientific program just for us to drink something that, you know, glows in the dark. It, they blew my mind. Like they were, that's some serious science going on in there. So, yeah. And, and they have no physicist in the, in alchemist. They have you know, some food scientists, but you need physics to do that to do also some textures.

They, they, they did a collaboration m i t PhD student that I was going to be her PhD supervisor, but she decided to go to the North Pole. She's still there. We, we'll see when she comes back she did a like a very polish bread inspired in nasa. And this is something really, really nice.

So when you are in the iss astronauts, they cannot eat bread because the bread crumbles can get into the circuits and blow up the whole thing. So that's why they bring these like tortilla style bread so they don't have bread [00:26:00] crumbles. Anyways, she came up with this kind of bread, like very porous, that had no crumbles, but the texture of it was super crazy as well.

Something interesting by the way is that in all high end cuisine restaurants you see is freeze dryer. So basically you get rid of all the water from a food product without going from from solid to liquid, just from solid to gas. Boom, you, you, you take out all the water.

Well, turns out NASA developed this technique so astronauts could bring, you know, food to the space. Getting rid of all the water. So it, it means less volume, less mass and they could put more food in there to go to the iss. And now, you know, 50 years later or 40 years later, all these, like, you know, high end cuisine restaurants are using this technique, but it was invented by physicists and engineers at nasa.

So this is something really good, by the way. Side note, it's not, well, [00:27:00] it's somehow related to gastronomy. I guess. When I was working at NASA before, I really wanted to be an astronaut so badly until I realized astronauts, they always say cause they need to recycle all the water. Why they need to get rid of the water.

So they really need to recycle. When I say all the water is all the work the point that they say today's pee is tomorrow's tea and not, and not only your own pee but everyone's

Justin Khanna: Oh my God.

Eneko Axpe: and they recycle the water with these crazy machines. Anyways

Justin Khanna: you opted for the career where you could continue to eat at Michelin restaurants versus orbiting the planet

Eneko Axpe: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I'm very, very interested in space food, though. In the Basque culinary center I teach space food. I teach gastrophysics. I teach sustainability as well. But yeah, space food is something that, that I think is the future for our planet. Like, for example, how can you grow [00:28:00] plants with very few water.

Not necessarily with any, you know ground. So, yeah. With aeroponics, with, with hydroponics, how can you minimize what a plant needs and maximize, you know protein content? How do you maximize you know all the good stuff that you can find in a plant? Something interesting. We are working on with nasa, it's on, on developing mycelium.

Cause mycelium, they grow fast. They can grow up to 40 millimeters per day and they can have like crazy amount of protein. Some of them up to 35%. So this is more than a steak, way more than a steak.

Justin Khanna: And mycelium for the listener is, is a fungus, right? Like

it's technically a mushroom almost.

Eneko Axpe: Yeah, it's like the longer story short is the roots of a mushroom and they can be very long. You can have mycelium that are kilometer long, like, cause they are connected underground. So basically we are using [00:29:00] that. And we are not only doing space food, but also we want to, to make materials out of it off planet.

And we are testing this in the Azurmendi restaurant in Eneko Atxa's restaurant. So really cool stuff. Really, really nice project. Another project This is still, you know an idea. The other one is more advanced. This was with Joan Roca from Celler de Can Roca. Celler de Can Roca is probably, if not the best restaurant I've been at in my life, top two or three.

And he's a genius. he's, he's an amazing guy. And we had this idea I got a moon rock. And the idea I had is well, water at the end of the day is, , if you take out the minerals, you can have moon water if you put the minerals of the moon rock in a water without minerals so people can understand.

So my idea was to, make moon vodka. Lunar vodka. So basically using lunar water, quote unquote lunar water or moon water. Yeah. [00:30:00] And we are still thinking about it. Cause Roca means rock in, in English. That's why we wanted to play with Moon Rock or Roca de Luna and having this lunar vodka.

So many projects that are interested around me in this moment. Yeah.

Justin Khanna: , as I kind of shared before we turn the mics on, the people listening are the folks that are your potential clients. Like they're the ones who are working the lines, who are managing the tasting menus, who are serving the food, picking it up on the pass, on a nightly basis. And when you think about you have this new product that you've created, you've had a breakthrough, you've discovered this amazing texture.

Maybe

Eneko Axpe: Mm-hmm.

Justin Khanna: the way I see it as kind of a third party observer is it's kind of then on the chef to make it delicious. And obviously you're involved. But I've had people who go to some of these tasting menus. And the chef is just so proud of this texture that they're able to achieve. it's like, look at what I, look at what I can do.

Look at what I can do. Look at what I can make this food look like [00:31:00] or taste like, or take the presentation of. And if it's not delicious, in my mind it's kind of like, what's the point? Because if we have to serve this to, you know, animals or plant this in the ground and have it grow in a really effective manner, then yes, of course there's some of these breakthroughs that that can really benefit society at large.

But at the end of the day, there's humans that have to eat this. And so I guess from the perspective of thinking about deliciousness and comparing it to something that's like maybe novel, how do you navigate that? How do you think about deliciousness in your work?

V: What makes a tasting menu awesome?

Eneko Axpe: I absolutely agree with you. . Oh, you hit the, you hit the spot there. When I go and, you know, pay this crazy amount of money to eat, I'm looking for the wow moment. I'm, I'm obviously looking for something delicious, but if I'm eating like in the Alchemist 35 dishes, they, to me, to me, they all don't need to be [00:32:00] necessarily delicious.

So as, mm, wow. It can be a texture that I've never tried before, that blows my mind, and I'm happy with that. I'm totally happy with that. I'm pretty certain that in 2025, they will make that crazy texture delicious. But when they come up with this crazy texture, they need to put it on a plate and say, Hey, like, look at this.

Cause to me, I'm, and to me that is valid because it blows my mind. Now, I don't want 35 dishes like that. I want, you know, like maybe 30 delicious dishes and five that blows my mind. And if you can blow my mind with a crazy texture that is also delicious. Boom. That's the winner ticket right there.

Justin Khanna: I

love that you said that like there's, there is a ratio in a tasting menu that is acceptable for bad dishes and I'm so glad you mentioned that cuz I don't think I've ever gone on this rant before with anybody like it. It's actually not the point to have the entire tasting menu be a 10 out of 10 dish.

It's okay to have something that is something that you've never [00:33:00] had before and maybe it's not quite there yet, but because it's trying to push the boundaries, but because it's trying to be completely novel because it's trying to express something that doesn't already exist, it might actually be okay. I think that ratio that you've nailed on like that, the one one in seven,

there's something there with like if you have seven courses and one of them's not quite there yet, but it's really interesting,

that's still a good.

Eneko Axpe: and it depends on the style of the restaurant too. For example maybe Alchemist and Mugaritz in San Sebastian, near San Sebastian in Spain, in the past country, they are very similar in terms of we are going to blow your mind. And, you know, if you are cool with that, good. If not, you can go to a different restaurant, no problem.

Then you have others like Asador Etxebarri. For example, in, in the Bas country, you won't see any, you know, mind blowing texture at all. But every little thing you gonna eat is [00:34:00] gonna be the most delicious thing. Like the execution of all dishes are, is really perfect. It's like this guy, he knows how to execute. Now you won't have something that glows in the dark or you won't have something that, you know It is so elastic that you can pull it, you know, three meters.

No, but this guy wakes up every morning at 4:00 AM gets the buffalo cheese, the mozzarella, and cooks it for you in, in, in this crazy thing that he has. So you can eat that, you know, food of the Gods. So, you know, it is, it is fine to have different styles. But yeah, I mean, deliciousness is key. But I'm cool with having restaurants around the world where deliciousness is central but not necessary in all dishes.

I'm cool with that. And let me tell you I'm more attracted to this type of restaurant where, where, where you blow my [00:35:00] mind. Not only eating, but as a scientist when, you know what Justin, like I cannot deal with, with dishes that I cannot make myself not know in the delicious part, but in the how deep, like how in the world did they do this?

Like, I, I like when, when they blow my mind, it's like, no, no, no. I cannot. I love that. I love that. I'm looking for that.

Justin Khanna: Well, I think that that's also the important piece and that's why your ratio, I think is, is kind of struck a chord with me because if you have a tasting menu where five of the dishes are just really bad. And of them are mediocre and it's a seven course tasting menu. That's really disappointing because it's like you actually don't know how to make something delicious.

And so that's where I think it's important to have like that proportion of deliciousness to novelty that you're seeing because it's like you see that these people can actually cook. It's not that they can't cook, it's that they're actually trying to push beyond what currently exists. And in that you will have some failures, you will have some things that might not be so [00:36:00] appealing.

And I guess, I don't know, do you, do you talk with these chefs about potentially doing some sort of a tester round or potentially saying, let's leave a little bit off the table in service of having it be a little bit more appealing to, cuz you know, you and I going out to eating at some of these places, we've been to some of these restaurants and we had the tasting menus and we're craving that like wow moment.

But for the person who. , you know, it's a 45 year old teacher and her husband, and they've never been to a Michelin Star restaurant, and their first experience is gonna be at Mugaritz. You know what I mean? You have to kind of appeal to that too. So it's like you have to

almost do both. I don't know. How do you think about that?

Eneko Axpe: I, I'm imagining my dad he will kill me. So, yeah, good point. So the way I see it is, like in arts, if you see Picasso's first paintings, they were super realistic. Like they, he had this like this I, I went to Picasso's museum in Barcelona and his very early paintings were realistic.

[00:37:00] Dali, Salvador, de same, very realistic stuff. And you see the drawings, you see the, you know, his art. And he's like, wow. Like this guy, he can paint like, like realistic stuff in an amazing way. But then they go beyond. It's the same for, for chefs sometimes. It's like, why am I gonna stop in just something delicious?

I'm gonna go beyond. So I agree with you that you need to demonstrate first that you are able to do something super delicious. Especially if you wanna charge over, you know, $100 for a meal. You need to tell me at the beginning, I will say, or maybe at the end, but somewhere you need to tell me, I'm able to make something super delicious.

Now let me play with you

Justin Khanna: Maybe that's all it needs is. Maybe that's all we need more of is some of these high end places being a little bit more transparent with the fact that like, This is actually designed [00:38:00] to push you as a diner a little

bit. Like we might not actually be all that comfort. Like this is not the end of this presentation.

This is like version two, you know, of this idea and, and maybe being a little bit more transparent with that would protect the diner from feeling like this is a fully polished, you know, execution of

something.

Eneko Axpe: Yeah. And something I love also is when these chefs have boundaries, self-imposed boundaries sometimes, let me give you an example central in Lima, in Peru,

Justin Khanna: I was just there. Amazing, by the way,

Eneko Axpe: if okay if anyone listening to this podcast want to do something beautiful with their lives, go to Peru, go to Lima, go to Central. I hope you agree. Justin

Justin Khanna: a hundred percent.

Eneko Axpe: And I say boundaries because these people, they want to promote their land. They want to promote Peru, so they won't serve you anything that is out of their boundaries.

I'm gonna serve our Peruvian product, which by the way, they are lucky because you have, you know, the [00:39:00] Amazons, you have. Super high mountains. You have rivers, you have beach Lima, you know, Paaracas you have fish. So they have everything, but they self-imposed, you know, these boundaries.

Or for example, 11 Madison Park, when they came up with these studies in the University of Oxford about you know, how meat pollutes how bad is for the environment. They say, you know what, goodbye meat and believe me, Justin, this is to me one of the top, top places I've been at in my life.

You have food there and you forget that it's plant-based In the second dish,

You are, not aware that the, the food you eat in is plant-based anymore after the second or third dish. Cause they do serious stuff in there. so I love that as well. When, when people put, you know, theirselves in pockets and they say, I'm not gonna leave this pocket, but I'm gonna still blow your mind.

I'm thinking about this other restaurant. They just gave them Michelin star. It's called [00:40:00] Aurelia, in tiny place in the middle of nowhere in the Basque country. They are doing a revolution in this little village because there was nobody in that village. Everyone was leaving, no young people.

And all of a sudden this guy born and raised in, in that place says, I'm gonna hire, you know, , I, I believe it's 70 or 80% of the employees are from the same village. So they, they, you know, teach them how to serve in a Michelin star restaurant, how to cook in a Michelin restaurant and boom, they got a Michelin star.

They are only working with products and, and dishes that are well known in, in that small village. So their boundaries are huge. They are still being super creative. Those type of, you know, chefs stories I love them and I think they are necessary. So Delicious. Yes. Important. But it's not the only thing I'm looking for when I go to one of these restaurants.

Yeah.

Justin Khanna: Did you see the news about [00:41:00] Amass closing in Copenhagen?

Eneko Axpe: No, no. I have no

Justin Khanna: so Matt Orlando, who was the chef de cuisine at Noma for a long time, and he was at per se before that, he opened this restaurant in Copenhagen called Amass, which was very focused on sustainability. , and I'm sure you know the place I'm giving this background for the listener, and they came out with the news, I think it was yesterday or the day before that they're closing.

Like just out of nowhere. They're just not gonna be open anymore, effective immediately they're closed.

And so on the topic of environmental impact and sustainability and food, some chefs, they can't be have anything to do with it. They roll their eyes at this idea of being sustainable. They're like, we will never be sustainable with, with how I do business.

V: What does sustainable mean ato you?

Justin Khanna: And then there's other chefs like Matt Orlando who basis his entire concept around sustainability or you have like silo in the UK that's doing all this sustainability advocacy and, and, and work in their business. When you think about the word sustainable, what does that mean to you?

Is there kind of like a [00:42:00] happy medium of doing certain practices but other practices might not?

I mean, that's the joke that everybody's doing is like,

you ran a sustainable restaurant, but it wasn't a sustainable business.

So talk to me about that.

Eneko Axpe: yeah. Really, really good question. So sustainability is something that you can keep in, in time in, in different manners. If we are talking, for example, economic sustainability the great majority of three Michelin stars are not sustainable cause they are spending more money than they are actually making, they make money from other sources.

Like if I have a three Michel star restaurant and I open other 10, then they don't have a, but I have the name, I'm making money out of it. Cool. But the restaurant itself, from the point of view of, you know, economics, the great majority I will say, are not sustainable. Now if we are talking about human sustainability, let's say, there was a huge, huge quote unquote scandal in [00:43:00] Spain.

When Diverxo they raised the prices. They went from 200 and something to 365, I believe it was. People went bananas here, like, why are you charging this money? And it's like, well, I want to give X days of holidays to, to my team. I want them to have a work, you know, work-life balance. It is not sustainable if, if I keep charging 200 and it's not something public.

This is private. If you think it's too expensive, just don't come. And I do agree with that. Like a restaurant needs to be sustainable for the humans. So in terms of work-life balance, cause here in Spain and everywhere in the world, I would say it hasn't been like that. And it's nice to see people that are trying to, to change that, you know, and, and treat their team as humans, as in, as in other jobs.

But I don't know why like in, not only in high end cusine restaurants, but in restaurants in general that has [00:44:00] been an issue and a big one. And then you have sustainability regarding the planet.

Yeah, I have some books here. This is from Alice Water. We are what we eat and I'm pretty sure you know this one from Mike Pollan.

Okay.

Justin Khanna: it's a very dry the omnivore, so an Eneko's holding up the Omnivore's dilemma right now, which is a very hard book to get through.

Eneko Axpe: Let me tell you, to me, this is the past. This is valid, but it's the past and 99%, of the chefs saying that are doing a sustainable, you know, sustainable meals. They rely on this book or on this on Alice Waters books. Well, if you really want to be sustainable with the planet, what you need to do is to look at the data. And let me give you an example,

Justin Khanna: Please.

Eneko Axpe: Can we have I don't know, like sustainable [00:45:00] meat, for example. Well, you can say maybe if it is, you know not intensive or extensive regenerative Well, I made the other day some numbers. If all the meat that we are consuming today will be regenerative will be from extensive, we will need 150 planets of land, 150 planets of land.

So it might be sustainable for a small, you know, country, for a small village. It can be sustainable, but it's not scalable to the plan for the planet. We are 80.

Justin Khanna: and why, why is that?

Is it just so energy intensive?

Eneko Axpe: Yep, yep, yep. So the thing is that you are let me, let me go to these

Justin Khanna: please,

Eneko Axpe: But we are 8 billion people right now. The UN is saying that by 2100 to 2,100 we will be 11 billion.

So 40% more than what we, how do we feed [00:46:00] the planet when we are already are using more than half of the habitable land we have in the world? Think, think about that twice. So we have the habitable land in the world. We are already using more than half of it and we are going to be 40% more people in.

So one of the issues is that coming back to beef meat, but we have many other products that are not sustainable, is they need a lot of land and when I say they need a lot of land, it's also bad for biodiversity. For example, Brazil, they are cutting a lot of the Amazons they are, you know, putting or, or set, set parts on fire so they can have later you know beef in their cows, in their you are having nowadays from all the mammals, biomass, only 4% is wild, only [00:47:00] 4%.

The great majority of the, of the mammals biomass in the world is what we eat. Cows, pigs, et cetera. So what basically what I'm saying is that we are destroying the biodiversity. We are using a lot of land and we are. Not joking, running out of land because we are using more than half of it. Then you, you need a lot of water for some products.

And, and we, we will face scarcity of water. In some places in the world they are already facing this. We will face it even more. So many issues. It has been the elephant in the room. Cause we all know that, you know, you, you might have a car. I have a car. I know that every time I use my car I'm polluting.

I know it. But people don't know that eating A or B also pollutes. People don't know the numbers. And this is something [00:48:00] that's scary to me, to me, you know, after reading these books, I know that eating local products, it is so important. However, if you check the numbers, for example, in the carbon footprint, only around 3%.

Represents transport. When, when, like if, it pollutes with, you know, 100 CO2 equivalent kilograms only three of those will come from transport because the great majority of food is transported by boats, not by planes. We, for example, again, carbon footprint. All the transport in the world is around 11% of all the gas emissions that we put out there, the greenhouse gas emissions, 11%, while wheat represents the 26%.

We don't talk about it. We don't talk about how can we eat polluting less. And we have a, we [00:49:00] have a weapon that is so useful that we don't use it to, to combat climate change, which is let's consume. Less red meat cause important? No, not only for the health of the planet, but for our health. In, in the us eh, we consume nine times the red meat that we should, that is recommended by medical doctors nine times.

So what about this? Why don't we reduce our, you know, red meat consumption to one ninth at least of what? Weed And with more vegetables, more, you know, beans more fruits. And if they are local and seasonal, even better. Even better. Not in some places in you, you just don't have that. Like, I'm not saying that, you know, people in North Canada, they need to eat local, you know vegetables, but.[00:50:00]

When we can, let's consume, you know, as much as we can. Local vegetables, seasonal vegetables, fruits, eh, you know, nuts. Cause at the end of the day, think about it, right? Like when you eat nuts, you are eating from a, from a tree and the tree is capturing co2. So you are, so what you are doing is positive for the planet.

Cause you are consuming protein. You are, you know, feeding yourself from a tree that captures co2. Same for fruits, for example. Versus something that needs a lot of land. And it's like from the physics point of view thermodynamically not sustainable because it's you need to actually from 100 calories that you need to feed an animal.

Usually we get 1% of them. So why, why not, you know, making use of these 100 calories. To feed the planet and using less resources. So yeah, I don't know why the great majority of chefs stopped with, you know, Alice Waters [00:51:00] and Mike Pollan. And I recommend to go beyond, you know, go to our world in data, which, which is a website from the University of Oxford, and you Google you know, food emissions, land use food, our boring data.

You have all the data in there from, you know, papers that use like tens of thousands of data points. I also recommend this one. We are the weather. by Jonathan Saffran for really good book cool data in here as well. So yeah. Let's read, let's, let's talk about data we have and then let's act in consequence because we are using the, the word sustainable very lightly.

The other day I went to a gas station and they said, this is a sustainable gas station, and I wanted to kill myself. Yesterday was like, oh my God. The same is happening with some restaurants. They are saying that they are sustainable or they are serving sustainable food, but in reality, if you look at the data, they are not.

Justin Khanna: well, I guess the, [00:52:00] the place where I would maybe push back on that is this idea of your, let's say there is someone who is deciding, okay, he's right. I need to reduce my red meat consumption to one ninth of what I, you know, did in 2021. a lot of people who might think that or kind of believe that or maybe have the ability to make that type of a decision might decide that the one time in those nine meals that they are going to have red meat, they're gonna trust a restaurant to provide that product for them.

And so in my mind it's kind of like this idea of don't hamstring the restaurant and say that they can't do red meat stuff or cook what they want to cook, especially if they're. Helping local purveyors or something like that, having their own dry aging programs, something like that. so I, I'm kind of kicking this ball around with you.

I'm not, I'm not kind of making any sort of, you know, accusations or judgements here. It's just this idea of should that onus be on the restaurant? Should it be on the consumer? And then I guess maybe if you can speak [00:53:00] to this idea, cuz everybody has been saying that this regenerative meat thing is going to be the way that we solve this.

It's not gonna be this situation of you have to raise a whole cow and, and slaughter the whole thing and have all this waste. We can just grow a bunch of ribeye steaks and that that's what we will be eating in the future. I saw Andrew Zimmer post on Twitter the other day, a piece of nigiri with a perfect piece of lined salmon and it was just like perfect fat, you know, separation on the flesh of the salmon.

I was like, maybe this is the, the answer, but you're telling us that maybe that's not necessarily true.

Eneko Axpe: no, no, no. That, that one is a different topic.

Justin Khanna: Got

it. Got it. Got it. Okay.

Okay.

Eneko Axpe: first of all, I do agree with you myself, I've reduced hugely my meat consumption, but

Justin Khanna: And I'm the same just for the rec, for for the listener. It's like, I don't eat steak every night. You know? My wife and I will eat meat, you know, a couple times a week. It's not something where every single day we're

getting down on a

on a prime rib, you know?

Eneko Axpe: yeah. No. So a couple of things here. First of all we need [00:54:00] to tell the people that even if you keep eating red meat, you need to be aware that you are polluting. Then is your decision. My decision, for example, is I since I looked at and understood all this data, I reduced hugely my consumption of red meat.

Now, do I still sometimes, few times consume red meat? Yes. I went to Buenos Aires, Argentina last month, and that is cultural there . I went to Don Julio. I ate amazing red meat from Argentinian cows. And I enjoyed it. If I go to a barbecue and, you know, . My best friend cooks, you know, a burger for me, and there is no alternative.

I'm gonna eat it and I'm gonna be thankful and, and eat it. I'm just trying to say, let's put the, the information out there so people understand that. Cause again, like when you ride your, you know, gas motorbike looks [00:55:00] cool, but you know you're polluting, you know, it, it is just that. Then there is another thing, like if we already reduce hugely our meat consumption, there is a lot of people that is gonna suffer.

People that with cows, people with sheep, people with what do we do with other people? This is not as easy as saying everyone vegan, starting tomorrow. Well,

Justin Khanna: Well cause that has, does, doesn't that have its own negative ramifications too? Like the amount of land we would need to have to grow the amount of produce required to have everybody being vegan. Isn't that also like crazy? And again, I'm, I'm kind of asking the question. I'm, I don't, I don't, I don't know the exact data,

Eneko Axpe: Ideally, ideally the vegan diet is the most, the most sustainable one, no sustainable for the planet. But let me tell you, what do we do with all, we need a plan before we act in that radical way. Like we need a plan. What do we do with all these people? I'm not, I'm not saying when need to, let's first get all the information we need, [00:56:00] then acting consequence, reduce.

But you know, we

also having, you know, being aware of all these people, et cetera, like only in Spain, like 200,000 people live from this friends as well, you know but they understand that I'm reducing my meat consumption because a, it is good for my health. Cause you know, like if you eat more red meat that you need, it has been linked.

cardiovascular diseases colorectal cancer, probability, et cetera. But I, I haven't heard of any vegetable, fresh vegetable that causes the same. So is it good for your health? Good for the health of the planet and then what you talked about the nigiri, I saw that. Amazing. This is a different thing. So besides, you know, impossible foods beyond meat that they are trying to do, like plant-based meat, there are these other companies that they do the so-called lab grown meat.

This is a different strategy. So basically it's using the tissue engineering [00:57:00] concepts for food. So in tissue, engineering is basically, I don't know, you, you, you burn yourself badly and you have a scaffold with your own cells. They put your own cells, they grow like fake skin of Justin, and then they, they implant it.

So you have your own skin. Let's say they took this concept and they said, , why don't we grow meat, you know, without killing the animal. So what they do is they get cells fibroblast, usually out of an animal, and they do a 3D culture with a 3D scaffold, usually plant-based in, and they grow meat in three dimensions that you can eat.

That's what you saw. The nigiri they do, they can do the same. They do the same with fish, with different products. That the problem there is not, the sustainability issue is way more sustainable than the animal counterpart. The issue there that they are facing is the scalability. They need huge, huge bioreactors.

So [00:58:00] now the challenge is engineering. So they are facing those issues. Some of them, they are putting a ton of investment on the table. And some of them they believe it will, they will be able to scale this up. But that is a technology that is there. Like Singapore, they have already approved.

The this was like chicken lab grown meat for human consumption. The F D A is making moves as well. Like very recently, I think it was like couple of weeks ago they already announced that they are studying this case for upside foods. They are growing meat in the lab.

So there is, there are different strategies that we, we will need because people don't want to change. If I tell my dad, You know that you need to eat, you know, one ninth of the amount of red meat you eat, he's gonna be like, wait, what? I want my burger. I want my hotdog, I want my steak. You know, maybe we need to give, to these [00:59:00] people like my dad alternatives or as they sometimes call it, substitutes that are sustainable, are healthy and are delicious.

And they're, they're just in delicious is key because it's not like going to a, to the alchemist where you want to experience this is millions and millions of products that you need to, you know, put out there every day. And without these products being delicious, they will fail. They will completely fail.

So, and, and by the way, gastrophysics plays a key role in, in there as well. Cause it's not only delicious from the, from the point of view of flavor, but also a texture that you recognize and. Enjoyable and nice. Because as soon as the texture gets different to us, it's not, you know shrimp anymore or a, you know, piece of lamb anymore.

Justin Khanna: I'm right there with you. Like the, the solution is going to be somewhere in the middle. All these people who get very dogmatic about like, everybody needs [01:00:00] to go vegan, or we need to do this regenerative farming thing, or everything is gonna be lab grown. It's like very few times in history. Has that been the place where we've landed, where there's one single solution that solves all of the problems.

It's, it's some mix of all of these different things that align with other incentives that are at play. But I, I wanted to kind of say for the listener, because I made the mistake of you thinking that when you said regenerative. Meat, you meant lab grown meat and that's what the one that you said needed 150 planets.

So for the, for the listener, the regenerative farming practice of cultivating livestock is this idea of like, the cows come through and they feast on the grass, and then the grass, the crops grow, and then they harvest the crops and then the chickens come through and the chickens poop, which is the fertilizer for then the next round of just being able to move through pieces of land instead of this mono crop style culture or these

big factory farms

where you just kind of grow a bunch of, you know, livestock and then kill it

Eneko Axpe: which, if you decide to admit that's the most sustainable [01:01:00] way to do it,

Justin Khanna: is the regenerative

Eneko Axpe: yes, but, but is still far from being more sustainable than

Justin Khanna: Right, right. So do, are you optimistic that they will figure out the lab grown meat? Because, you know, that can scale vertically. Like there's a bunch of different options that they

can have that takes up less land that, you know, of course it, I think it uses a lot of the water right now,

like with energy costs coming down.

Like maybe there's a solution there. Are

you optimistic?

Eneko Axpe: I am, I am optimistic not only on this, but on the, on how we are going to combat climate change from the gastronomy point of view. And let me tell you why. Because we have, I will say the brightest, maybe not the most creative yes. Minds in the world, in gastronomy and in science. Like we are creative, so we gonna come up with solutions.

I'm confident and I'm pretty sure about that. We just need to inform ourselves or give, you [01:02:00] know, put all this data on the table and think about solutions. Let me tell you about another solution that started in nasa. It's amazing. So in nasa, they wanted to give protein to astronauts with this microorganism that basically quote unquote eats CO2 and gives protein.

It's a, yeah, it's a type of microorganism that they discovered on us. And they say, Hey, like astronauts in a spaceship or in the iss, they are excelling like you and me. Co2, why don't we use the co2 in, in such a way. So Two, two different companies that I know of. One is American is a, a spinoff from the University of California, Berkeley.

And then another one that is Finn from Finland. This guy was, I believe, the ministry of energy. And when he realized that, you know, food and gastronomy [01:03:00] plays such a key role in combating climate change, he decided to run this company. One is called solar Foods and the other one Solar Foods is the finished one, I believe.

Yes. And the one from Berkeley, I, I forgot, but I will tell

Justin Khanna: If you find it, I'll send it to me and I'll put it in

Eneko Axpe: the shownotes

I, I will send it to you later. Yeah. anyways.

So basically they are building these massive bioreactors with this micro microorganism and they feed this microorganism with co2 and this microorganism gives protein. So they are basically getting the, the ultra sustainable protein because you are taking, you know, you are feeding with g with gas that is bad for the planet.

A little animal that is feeding you protein, basically. So it's, [01:04:00] it's there. There are really nice solutions out there. I think we just need time. We just need information. We just need data. Data. We just need gastrophysics, science and gastronomy. And believe me, we will win this battle for sure.

Justin Khanna: I, I want to take us. Back down a little bit cause that was very up in the clouds. And I want to take us back down for one kind of quick question for you before we get into some rapid fire ones and, and, and we'll wrap things up. I'm obviously no gastrophysicist, but I got immensely interested early on in my career in what Harold McGee was doing.

I binged all of the modernist cuisine stuff because the why behind cooking stuff was just practical to me as a line cook. So if I broke a sauce and I knew that lesathin helped keep an emulsion together, I could save my sauce and then be set up for service on time. Right. So it's very practical for me. So in your mind, are there specific principles of culinary science or gastrophysics that if someone's listening and they're in [01:05:00] culinary school or they're as a line cook somewhere where it's like, you don't need to know how to create lab grown meat, but you should really just understand this.

Is there something that, that, that stands out there?

Eneko Axpe: I will rec, there is no only one physical property that is the key for everything. What I will do, if people wanna learn more about this, I will recommend three things. One is the Harvard Course, science and Cooking. If you don't need the diploma, it's for free. And you will learn. You will learn a lot. And they teach physics there.

And if they are more interested, not only in physics or gastrophysics, but the science, the two books you mentioned to me are still absolutely magnificent. Like we don't need to invent the Wheel. Harold McGee , food and Cooking and Modernese Cuisine. By the way one of the writers was the chef at Fat Duck.

Justin Khanna: Yeah, Chris Young

Eneko Axpe: yes, [01:06:00] I was there. , few weeks ago actually. I loved it. I totally loved it, and it was great to have dishes that I've seen many, many times. He was, to me, a, a real game changer and, and one of the pioneers by the way, something that it was amazing when I got this award called 15 X by 50 best re.

Justin Khanna: Congratulations, by the

Eneko Axpe: Thank you. Thank you. He was the one announcing the yeah, yeah. So it was great. And then I, I eh, so eh, Crenn from Atelier Crenn and Joan Roca were there as well. And it was, it was amazing that I, I met so many interesting people that, by the way, you should definitely interview. I will give you some names later.

But yeah, I, I, what I was saying is that these three things like science and, and cooking from Harvard, and these two books are key. If you want to start understanding it, start to understand the science behind your dishes. Be behind [01:07:00] food. And believe me, you will come up with creative stuff once you understand how the things work at the molecular level.

Then you can start playing and doing great stuff. Like to me it has been not only my job, but my passion as well. Like, cause at the end you understand things that no one before understood. And you create things, textures, even flavor aromas that there were not there before. And it's like, wow, I created this texture.

Like, and, and I love challenges, for example. Like, Hey, let's create the most elastic food in the world. Boom, let's create the most fragile food in the world. Things like that. I, I love it. I just love it. And I recommend everyone to, to try to do some gastrophysics at home.

Justin Khanna: Let's move to some rapid fire questions.

This, this, this show is called a Repertoire podcast, and the way that I kind of [01:08:00] define a repertoire is this set of skills that you can take around with you. So regardless of whether you're at Stanford or you're working at nasa, you have this skill that comes with you , Eneko.

When I say the word, that word, what would you say is the most valuable part of your repertoire

Eneko Axpe: Physics, physics.

And your understanding

Justin Khanna: of it? Your way, your, your ability to apply it. What, what, what part of it?

Eneko Axpe: I think my ability to apply physics to gastronomy and to speak the same language as chefs has given me very important tools that I realized very few people have, and I'm trying to change. You know, teaching others, for example, in the Basque Culinary Center. Yeah, yeah. So how to apply physics to gastronomy and how to speak the same language.

Cause the language you folks use and the language we use is not the [01:09:00] same. But now that I understand both languages, I guess it has been a, a very important tool for me. Yeah, I will, Justin, if you will ask me, I will put like, physics st like I will go to, you know physicist and, and ask them like, would you like to spend, you know, one week in Alchemist?

If three say yes, I am pretty sure that one of them will stay there for years cause it's so insane to, to like the tools we have that they don't and vice versa, like, . Yeah. So, and we don't do that. Like for some reason it's like you study physics, boom, you do physics and stuff, you study, you know maths.

Maths let's, you know, let's do fun things. I think the Basque Culinary center really understood that. And they are doing very core functional courses and, and the professionals that come up from that center are very unique in that sense that you have people that [01:10:00] are, you know that have studied everything from psychology to you know anthropology, very, you know, things that you will say, why, and then boom, they create these crazy restaurants with, you know, a storytelling, da, da da.

But that's, that's the future. The, the cross sections. Yeah.

Justin Khanna: It's a Saturday morning. It's your first day off after your work week, and you go into your kitchen and you're gonna make eggs for. . How do you make those eggs?

Eneko Axpe: I'm a freak. Justin, do you know last time, last time I, I did eggs. I, I got the, the red part of the egg and I, and I put it with bread crumbles and I deep fried it and, and then I mixed the white part with milk and I did like a, kind of like a, not a foam, but something more solid than a foam. More dense.

And then I, I put the red part on the [01:11:00] top. I wanted to keep it that way, but , it went all the way down. I ate it anyway, so it was, and it was delicious. So yeah I'm a, I'm a crazy mind

Justin Khanna: Hey. I mean like that's where most people, when they get into their culinary science nerding out about the wise gastrophysics, effectively, they start with eggs

Because eggs is such a textural exploration,

and there's fat and protein and water, and all of it comes together

Eneko Axpe: eggs are amazing. Look, the gastrophysics of eggs could be a PhD. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah,

Justin Khanna: Is there something that you've changed your mind on in recent memories? So something that you maybe thought was true, but recently you've said maybe that's not true.

Eneko Axpe: It was very hard for me to understand the data behind what food is sustainable. Cause sometimes some of the dishes that are not sustainable or are less sustainable are intrinsic to my culture, for example. And that fight [01:12:00] of trying to do good for the planet but fighting my own culture. Poof. That has been hard.

I changed my mind, but that was a struggle. I'm still working on it. Yeah, so that one, I will say

Justin Khanna: is there a, a technique that you've seen play out in one of these kitchens that you actually, whether it's cooking over open fire or like blending the perfectly smooth puree or piping a tuile in a, in a, in a certain way, is there something that you particularly like to practice or, or that you know that if you developed it a little bit better, it would make you a better gastrophysicist?

And so I'm asking about culinary technique at this, at this point

Eneko Axpe: the guy at Asador Etxebarri did things, cook things that I've eaten 1 million times cause he's very Basque food and I'm Basque. I still don't understand how in the world this guy controls everything so perfectly. So the thing you [01:13:00] eat is just perfect. For example, like in his barbecue, he uses different woods. He uses for the temperature.

He has like a whole thing going on. He, he did in the, in, in the barbecue for the first time the European eel, which is like something that you eat very few times here it's very, very expensive. He's like he's like something really crazy expensive. This guy talk to some engineers in a univer in local university to produce a pan that was, that had these micro holes so he could put the eels in the barbecue.

And he's like, how did like, cause this, the, the eels are, are very, are

Justin Khanna: they're super small. Yeah, I've had them. It's wild.

Eneko Axpe: And to me it's like this guy, like he, they used a special loy, they laser cut this little holes, so, so he, he could cook the eels. I would spend there two months [01:14:00] understanding and I, I, or two years and I wouldn't understand exactly.

But yeah, I mean, I would love to be an Alchemist for some weeks. Yeah. Where else? I would love to be in Central as well

Justin Khanna: You would go to cental over mil?

Eneko Axpe: Over mill.

Justin Khanna: Yeah. Cuz did you eat at Mil as

the-repertoire-podca_eneko-axpe-interview_eneko_axpe-a30ytk2vo_2022-nov-30-2013pm-utc-riverside-002: Yeah. Yeah.

Eneko Axpe: I,

Justin Khanna: would go to Cental versus go to Mil?

Eneko Axpe: Oh, oh

central.

Justin Khanna: Cental.

Eneko Axpe: Yeah. Yeah. And some, another one that I recommend is, Maido is uh, Nikkei food. So all these Japanese migrants that went to Peru when there was an economic crisis in Japan, and they developed what to me is the best cooking technique in the world, which is the Japanese with the best product in the world.

That to me is the Peruvian and boom, they developed the Nikkei food. And to me, the best Nikkei place I've been is Maido and . I went once to Maido and I was leaving Peru, like in a couple of days, [01:15:00] and I asked them, like, almost kneeling, please let me come back. Cause there were so many dishes that I wanted to try, but I couldn't eat more.

And, and I, they, they saw me so desperate that they gave me an opportunity for a second day. And I went for the second day in a row. But yeah, I will, I will eat there all week. Like really, really cool stuff.

Justin Khanna: That cuisine type is spelled N I K K E I. If anybody wants to do research on that after this conversation, you. Somehow get a call right after we get off this call that you've just want an all expenses paid trip to eat at your dream restaurant somewhere you've always wanted to go eat. And when you get there, there's someone you've always wanted to speak with, waiting to have dinner with you.

What is that restaurant? And who is the person?

Eneko Axpe: Woo. This needs to be someone related to gastronomy or It

Justin Khanna: No, no. It could be anybody.

Eneko Axpe: oh. wow. Wow. Okay. There are two that I really wanna go. I've never been in Noma. I really wanna go to Noma and I really [01:16:00] wanna go to Disfrutar in Barcelona. I've never been either, so one of these two so I'm gonna say two. I would love to go,

I would love to go with you, Justin to Noma,

for example.

Justin Khanna: I would, yes, I have, I went to the old Noma. I haven't been to the new Noma.

And you know, for people listening, I might have said this in the intro, but, and Eneko and I ate at Brooklyn Fair right next to each other at the counter, and we just geeked out about food the whole time.

It was awesome. And so, yes. Would a hundred percent join you on that meal

Eneko Axpe: and then the second one I will say Ferran Adria, I will eat in this with Ferran Adria. Some people in this food work in el Bulli before I've seen a nine hour documentary about el Bulli that the Spanish television made. I

Justin Khanna: would, what would you ask him? Like what would you ask Ferran.

Eneko Axpe: so many things. So many things. Cause this guy did physics without knowing he was doing physics. This [01:17:00] guy did chemistry without knowing he was doing chemistry. I will bomb him with, with questions. . Yeah. I would love to spend a, I I would love to, to have a lunch with him. Yeah, I will. Actually, you know what, Justin, you, you just inspire me now.

I'm gonna fight for this to happen at some point.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to contact him and, and ask him and hopefully in some years I will send you a picture with Ferran Adria in Disfrutar

Justin Khanna: I I will make a video about that cuz of that. That would be incr. Like I have, we have it recorded. It's recorded. Oh man. I mean, the guy's a legend. He's such a legend and, and it's one of the, like, it breaks my heart that I never got a chance to eat at el Bulli while it

was open. I, I, I, hate that. I never got a chance to

go.

Eneko Axpe: Game changer. It's a foundation now actually Justin, you will be a really good and, and people listening, I'm pretty sure they can also apply, but you will be a really interesting profile for them [01:18:00] in the el bulli foundation. They have like this three month stay that you can be there with people that are very different to you.

Cause they bring people from very different, you know, backgrounds and, and topics that they are experts on. So, yeah, if people are listening, there is something you can do. You can apply for el Bulli Foundation and they give these three months a stay. You will kill it Justin? Yeah. Maybe you can talk to him and say like, Hey, Eneko wants to have lunch with you in Disfrutar

maybe you

Justin Khanna: totally The last question that I ask all my guests and, and I interview people who are not chefs on the show all the time, and I, I, I'm not saying that you're claiming to be a chef or not,

Eneko Axpe: No, no.

Justin Khanna: like to get

Eneko Axpe: Believe, no

Justin Khanna: well, because well, because you, you work with chefs so closely and you deal with all of the operational constraints and the financial problems and the egos and all of that.

I'm so curious. What do you think chefs can be doing better to help the next generation?

Eneko Axpe: Two [01:19:00] things. One, to read the data about sustainability and two, diversity, it is, it kills me when I see in the top a hundred chefs in the world, literally zero Black chefs, for example, like zero. There is an issue there, there is a very European center, you know, way to think about food. And to me, we are missing so many flavors, so many textures, so many, you know, things for being self-centered.

So we, we, I mean we as the gastronomy world, we have a huge, huge issue there. So that is something chefs should definitely change.

Justin Khanna: and do you think that is like what, what's this? Because I, I, I've had a couple of other folks make that ask, but I always, like, this audience is so tactics and strategies and learning and growth focused that I, I, I try to push beyond just the, the, the talking points [01:20:00] and say, what is the, the action item that someone can do if they're running a, a, a restaurant or they're in a, a culinary educational institution, or they're maybe listening and they're voting on something for the world's 50 best like, , is it maybe not doing any of that?

Like, I guess in your mind, what are some of the, the solutions that can

go beyond

Eneko Axpe: Yeah. Many, many, many things actually. You can promote in culinary schools to have students from different backgrounds. You can also start going to places out of your comfort zone cause I'm pretty sure you will

Justin Khanna: a diner, you're saying?

Eneko Axpe: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

We'll discover, you know, dishes that will blow your mind.

And, and also people with influence try to recommend chefs out there to also go to these places. There is this Nigerian chef, for example that worked in, in high in cuisines, and [01:21:00] now he has a, I will say the first super high in cuisine restaurant in Nigeria and Nigeria is a a

Justin Khanna: It's like the fastest growing

country. Like one of the fastest

growing Yeah. Economies. Yeah.

Eneko Axpe: It doesn't, it doesn't have the in terms of population, the size of the US, but will catch up soon. So, you know, like, why don't we bring this person to teach us about their food? Like, you know, so, so we learn about them and, and open our minds about like, you know, there are many, many cultures out there.

Let's try their food. Let's discover their food. Let's learn from their, from them. So for people listening, go out there and try new stuff from different cultures and from people with influence. Let's, let's make, you know, diversity a common thing in culinary schools, for example. Yeah.

Justin Khanna: I mean, speaking of [01:22:00] learning, we, we could continue to talk for probably another two hours, but I, I, I wanna let you go. Where, where do you want people, if they want to get in touch with you or kind of follow along with what you're, you're doing out

there, is there, a place that you would prefer for people to go follow you?

Eneko Axpe: yeah. I'm on IG and you can follow me. It's my name underscore my surname underscore, so E N E K O underscore A X P E underscore. And then I'm also on Twitter e n e k o a x p e altogether just follow me on social media, drop me a message, DM me, and I'm happy to talk to anyone. Absolutely. I love learning from others, so please let me know.

If there is any comment, suggestion, question,

Justin Khanna: Well, thank you again for coming on the show. I, I can only imagine what city in the world or crazy tasting menu you and I will experience in the future. But

Eneko Axpe: we will, we will, Justin.

Justin Khanna: Thank you. Thank you again.

Eneko Axpe: Thank you Justin. This is [01:23:00] awesome and hopefully see you soon in person. Take it easy.

Well, well, here we are together again at the end of another episode of The Repertoire podcast. If this was your first time listening, this is a show for hospitality creators who want to think better, increase their performance and believe that it's. Possible to take lessons from what others have already learned.

I am your host, Justin Kana, and if you're new here, I'd like to personally welcome you to the show. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Friendly heads up to check out the show notes inside of the description of this podcast. If you want to check out previous guests links to specifics that got brought up in this episode, as well as other helpful content that we create and share here online because.

Everything we do is focused on helping you along your journey. If you don't have a ton of time, the best place to start is with some value sent straight to your inbox every single week. It's called the Repertoire Newsletter, where we share knowledge on sharpening your skills, asymmetric upside, and exploring the industry beyond the status quo.

If you subscribe, we'll keep you up to date on trends that are shaping the hospitality creator ecosystem. We'll share discounts on. Find as well as content that we've been producing ourselves and helpful [01:24:00] articles that we've already read and decided are worth your time. Last up, if you want to connect with other industry professionals in the Repertoire Pro community, you want to check out courses like Total Station Domination or download free tools that we've created.

You can learn more@joinrepertoire.com. That's J O I N R e P E R T O I R. Dot com. The only ask for me is that if you enjoyed this episode, I'd really appreciate a review of this show on Apple Podcasts as well as Spotify to help the podcast universe know that people like us, like shows like this.

Regardless, I'll see you in the next episode. My name is Justin Kana and I hope you have a good one.

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