Ki Chung | Standing Out On the Line, Nervousness, Eating to Learn, and Work You Can Sustain - Ep. 164
Episode Notes
In this episode, I'm joined by Chef Ki Chung of Bar Maze in Honolulu.
Expect a wide range of topics in this conversation, we talk about his journey to becoming a chef, including his time at French Laundry, Commis, and Aubergine. He also discusses the importance of creating a positive work culture in the restaurant industry, nervousness, improving team culture, and eating to learn.
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[sponsor] Check out The Standard from MISE: https://youtu.be/FRZNsBOudrQ
Show Notes:
Ki on IG: https://www.instagram.com/kilols/
Anthony Bourdain book (Kitchen Confidential): https://geni.us/AzvsAJ
Daniel Boulud book (Letters to a Young Chef): https://geni.us/ELJY7
Alinea cookbook: https://geni.us/SRFRQW
Unreasonable Hospitality book - Will Guidara: https://geni.us/unreasonable-hosp
Don't Make it In-House - Justin Khanna solo episode: https://repertoire.simplecast.com/episodes/dont-make-it-in-house
Ulterior Epicure: https://ulteriorepicure.com/
Bar Maze in Honolulu: https://barmaze.com/
Commis in Oakland: https://commisrestaurant.com/
Aubergine in Carmel by the Sea: https://auberginerestaurant.com/
Justin's Instagram: @justinkhanna
Follow The Repertoire Podcast on Instagram: @joinrepertoire
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Justin Khanna
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This episode’s transcript is auto-generated using software. Typos, misspellings, and errors might appear. If you have questions or fixes you’d like applied to this transcript, please reach out to hello@joinrepertoire.com.
What is up folks? Welcome back to another episode of the Repertoire podcast. My guest today is Ki Chung, and I want to, we, we were gassing up our guests a little bit on these intros and so Ki is one of my first connections in the culinary world, period. The cia. We both went to school together, believe it or not, and CIA, when.
We got accepted, they, this was right when Facebook, this was like 2009, like right when Facebook was, you know, starting to get a little bit more connected and beyond just like being on college campuses. And so the head of enrollment, something like that, connected all of us students who were starting at similar stages into like a group together.
And we could ask questions, we could talk about what we were excited about, why we chose ca, all of those sorts of things. And Ki. And I actually ended up doing like a little bit of private messaging together because I think we identified. We were both interested in fine dining. He had posted something in the group about like he was planning on doing a stge at French Laundry.
This was back when STAs were still allowed, and I was just like, mind blown. I was like, holy cow. Like I gotta get in touch with this guy. And so we ultimately ended up becoming friends because my roommate at the time grew up on the East Coast. Like when I got to cia I, my first weekend, I basically was like alone in my dorm room.
And I was like, well, I guess I'm alone, but, but maybe I'm not, you know, because I have this Facebook group that I became a part of. And so I just decided to go in there and message Ki and he was like, yeah, come over to my dorm. He. Two, two buildings down from me ultimately ended up meeting, uh, his roommate who was Hubert.
You might, you folks might know him as a previous guest on the show. He was like my sous chef when I had the event production company here. And he also immediately was like my best man at my wedding. Hubert was not, not Ki and so Ki and I have just been kind of like, you know, just internet friends. I, I would say, you know, after school we sta together in New York, we talk about that in this conversation.
You know, ultimately got a leadership role at Aubergine in Carmel, in California, ultimately getting them their first Michelin star. He was on the team for what, when that happened. Uh, he's worked at places like Commis in Oakland. And now he's the executive chef of Bar Maze in Hawaii. And so we just get deep into talking about like being nervous as a professional, some, you know, just general kind of like career progression moments that, that were valuable for him and then ultimately how he's trying to build a better culture inside of his.
Restaurant. And so if you wanna follow Ki, you wanna check out Bar Maze or any of the specific linkable things that we discussed, please do check out the show notes or they're always available@joinrepertoire.com in the blog section where we post these episodes. And if you aren't familiar with also post transcripts.
And so if it's valuable for you to kind of like follow along to a, you know, we'll call it, it's an editing platform generated transcript, so don't, you know, count on it to be too accurate. But that is also just a benefit and something new that we're rolling out with these episodes. And so let's talk.
You're probably no stranger to being on your feet while you work. And Mise believes that the footwear needs of the culinary industry have long been overlooked. And that changes right now because they have a line of shoes called the Standard, which has a pretty compelling feature in that they're actually two pieces.
Yes, these shoes come apart, believe it or not. You gotta have to see it to understand it fully. A flexible and sustainable foam insole is what the part that touches your foot. And then the outside is a gold rated leather and non. slip Outer and that insole is completely washable. We also did a bunch of tests on that outer to see if we could get it to stain, and spoiler alert, we used flour, we used melted butter, we used a carrot puree, we used a bunch of stuff, and it just didn't work.
It just wiped right, right off. It was pretty impressive, and I actually published a full review of these shoes on the Justin Khanna YouTube channel. So if you wanna get more information on the shoes, you wanna check those out and see if there's maybe a discount code. I think those went pretty quickly, but I made the video to be as comprehensive as possible.
So if you're in the market for a new pair of kitchen shoes, I'd love for you to check that out after this episode. And thank you so much to Mise for sponsoring the show.
Ki it's awesome to see you after so long. we, I, I gave it in the intro that we're gonna, we went to school together and it's been ages since we caught up.
How are you maybe to start.
I'm doing really good. Like, I feel happy, healthy, like, it's like, and like I feel like I'm in a good place life right now,
That's good. We're gonna get into why that is the case, but as a fun way to kind of let the listener get to know you a little bit, and considering you and I haven't caught up in ages, it seems like I figured we'd go through some checkpoints in your career and then you can share some highlights from individual times that I bring up and the listener can kind of get some insight from that because I think a lot of folks still utilize the path that you and I went down and step in the same footprints that we used.
And you and I didn't create these, we stepped in the footprints of other people before us. And so I think we agree on a lot too. You and I, it's the reason that we took the path that we took. But I also think we might disagree on certain points, so that might make for some, you know, kind of engaging conversation, sort of, kind of frame the first part of this interview, that's where I wanted to take things.
So I hope that sounds.
Yep.
So to start, I wanna talk about staging because literally the way that you and I became friends, if you don't remember I certainly do, is because pre CIA a used STD at French Laundry, which when I became a student I was like, holy shit. Like this guy is coming into CIA hot with like three Michelin star experience.
And this was like right before C French laundry stopped doing STAs. And so I don't think I've ever expressed this in a piece of content before, but like your courage to go to French laundry before school ultimately gave me the confidence to start to ask for STAs at that point in, in, in our education.
So maybe start with like your take on STAs and then I can do some follow up.
Yeah. So before, you know, knowing I went to, well, when I first found out that I wanted to cook, I just did. I was like obsessed. I would read every book, any information online, which at the time was scarce. I just tried to find
shout outs there? Like, ulterior epicure was like a
for sure.
you know, for
He was the only one. He was the only one that was, had any information on restaurants or anything.
The Anthony Bourdain book, the Daniel Boulud book, the uh, s book, like all those basically said the same thing. If you're a young chef, get your foot in the door no matter what. It's like now it's like, I guess they would call it like hustler mentality. It's like
Right.
If they, you email them a million times if they ignore you, show up at the doorsteps and be like, I wanna work today.
Like, I'll do whatever it takes. You know, at the time I was like, that's what I did. I was so obsessed. Like, I was like, show up to the doorsteps and be like, can I work today to say no? I show up at the next day, you know, eventually someone's gonna call out sick or someone's something's gonna, happen And be like, you know what, just let 'em in.
Just have 'em pick herbs. Like go put 'em in the corner, or whatever. So like, that's how I got my foot in the door. And you know, it's funny you mentioned like, oh, he's coming in hot. But like, you know, when you're staging at that level, when you're not doing anything, anything, even like worth or mentioning really, it's like you're learning the discipline, you're learning the, discipline all that stuff, but you're not, like, you're not a good cook.
Not even slightly. So it's like, it's just good for the discipline. I don't know what stage culture is now, like now, but I'm sure. I think it's good for the discipline. It's also good to have that mentality, like, I want it, I think, yeah, that's just, it was a fun time for me. I think. Maybe I went a little too hard on it sometimes, but yeah, it was a good, it's a good, memory for me,
Why, why do you say that? Do you think that it gave you, made you jaded towards fine dining, or it, you know, gave you too, too clean of a view early on, like it took away a little bit of the magic or.
I, I think I, you know, when you're like cooking, you always think you're gonna be better, you want to be better, but like, I think when you stage too long, you delay a little bit of the actual cooking. So I feel like I should have started cooking a little, I should have taken a job at a, as a line cook somewhere else.
Maybe somewhere less, you know, less you know, refined but more like grind and like learned that aspect of cooking a little earlier cuz when it's a little bit later and then you are like, kind of like, Influenced by so much stage like, so much of that work. It's hard. It's so hard.
I think that that's the, the point you brought up there, which Danielle talks about in the letters to a young chef book, is that that's the quote, right? Is that like you learn more cleaning lobsters in a three star kitchen or whatever that quote is, versus, you know, cooking the grill at, you know, a, a bistro.
And I think that that's the important thing for maybe the listener to take away is that, When you have this environment that teaches you that, that's something you can deposit into your career and that can start to compound for you. Whereas everybody else is focused on like all these fancy techniques or whatever.
And then because you have the ability to like say, work clean or move quickly or, you know what I mean, communicate, I don't that can work in your favor while everybody else is floundering or learning other stuff.
Yeah. My my cooks right now, you know, they, they're all from here. Like I didn't bring anybody. It's all from here. And, they don't really have that background. So like, it's kind of reversed for them. They're going from like kind of the turn burns into a fine dining place, but obviously they chose, they knew what they were going into and they, they're willing to change.
And that's such a weird and different mentality cuz it's like they know what to do, but they don't know how to do it. Like, how to do it in the fashion that I want it. And that's, it's such a hard thing to switch to. Like, you almost have to remind them for them. Like, Hey, wipe, hey, like this stuff on the floor.
Like, pick it up. Like, it's like they're so used to it and your brain's not wired. It's like the early wiring helps a lot, you know?
Yep. I'm gonna actually pop that in my notes here because I want to, I wanna circle back on that but I, I don't wanna leave staging yet cause I wanna stay at that point in your career.
[00:08:48] Ki and Justin talk about Staging
So, so you and I would stge together, like for the listener Ki, and I would we would take the train down to Manhattan from cia.
We would, I, I'm almost positive we'd get a burrito at Chipotle together, and then we would go off and do our sts. So sometimes we would go together. I think like at Bule you and I went inach together, but there were certain days where like you would go off and do your st and I would, you know, we would fist bump each other at Chipotle and be like, you're gonna go to Midtown and I'm gonna go to soho or whatever.
And it was like, we're gonna just do our STS and, and then whatever. For someone who is sitting at that Chipotle right now, they're eating their burrito. We're in their ears right now. They have a stage coming up in two hours. What advice do you have for them?
Oh man. Oh man. I know when I was sitting in that Chipotle, I was nervous as all hell. It was so scary to walk into a kitchen with intimidating cooks and you know, just walking in like young, culinary school kid. You know, that typical advice is right? Like, just put your head down, listen to what they say and work hard.
But, you know, I think, and I don't know how to like convey this, I think you were a little bit more successful in your stages than I was because you, you had like a certain per, you had like an outgoing personality and you were bubbly, whereas I was terrified and I just kept my head down. And so like, you know, you have to still make an impact of some sort.
I'm not saying be like overly annoying or obnoxious or anything, but like you were very good at just being like engaging in the cooks kind of like asking about that because you know, they're busy but they still, it's something different. And like, you know, the new guys coming in and they're like asking you questions.
You know, if you can engage them a little bit and it's, if you're, do it a way that they're not used to, you know, every cook's gonna come and be like, what's that? What's that? It's like, or every massage. But if you ask them like a meaningful question or you know, something. It might be, it might, you might get more from it and they might get more from you.
Like they might be like, this guy's actually kind of cool. And I would say I regret not being like, I regret being so shy and being so scared. Cause in the end, yeah, in the end you're, you're free help.
Yep. Yep. I mean, what helped me, and, and I know you did this too, I think it's like, it's, it's, it's a, again, benefit for the listener here is like, you and I would do research on what the restaurant menu was, right? So like a lot of people don't do that. A lot of people just go in blind to stage and they just have no idea what's on the menu, what's in season, what the chef is excited about, what the food blogger that came in two weeks ago is excited about
Yep.
And that little bit, it's, it, it's 10 minutes of research, man. You know what I mean? Almost every single restaurant posts their menu online in some way, shape or form. And so yeah, that's, that's,
At, at uh, lab then I think we did that one together. I asked um, I, I told the, I told him, the cooks, the one I told the sous chef actually, um, he was making the tuna and the fo and I was like, I was like, I can't believe I'm seeing that in real life. And he like laughs and chuckled because he does it every day, you know, he's just, he's just banging it out.
And then like, when he heard me say that, he was like, kind of like, what's wrong with you? But also kind of like laughing, like, that's cool, you know?
Yeah. Yeah. That's tight all the news that's come out. We had Blaine Wetzel on his STA year program. The No, no Mista year program, as I was talking about, like you were one of the last like STAs at French Laundry before they shut it all down. Have you changed your mind on staging in light of some of the recent news?
Are you more bullish on it than ever? Where, where, where, where's your head at with staging for the person who is relatively unexperienced
Well at this current like state, when, you know, cooks are that hard to come by, it's like, I think, I don't think it's necessary. I mean, know there's so much demand for cooks. I, I'm sure people take anyone. I did, I did wrestle with that like kind of hard cuz like, my initial thought was those long-term massages are so insane to work for free for that long.
But especially in these, in one of the places, you know, the places that we would want sagia are in big cities where it's really expensive and, but then, you know, I was on Ensa for like almost half a year and, as a Dodge basically, and for it was unpaid. But like all the stuff I got from Ensa I felt was worth it because, and I actually remember David coming in, coming in at the end of my shift.
And like, I, you know, I improved way more than I started. And he was like, this is why like those short, like one month stages are BS because look how much you improved. And I remember thinking like, oh yeah, that is cool. And then now that my chef, I'm a little bit more jaded about it, I'm like, like, I don't think I would take a long-term stop ever, even if like they came to the door and asked for it, like I would've to hire them. I just, I don't, I do, at a certain point, I did think it was important, and then other industries do unpaid work to get, you know, but I just don't think it's necessary anymore.
think it's always in, in comparison to what is kind of where my head goes because you know, I, I tell the story of like, imagine if Facebook would let you just come in and just like sit and watch the people building the backend of the app and just like, let you get in and write some code for the day.
You'd be like, shut up like that. There's no way that that's gonna happen. But in our industry, it totally happens. You know, you can like get the recipe for the fried holidays from Wiley Dains line cooks and just, you know, like back when WD 50 was a thing. And that I think is just such an underrated thing.
And I, I love that you called out, like so many of the experience these experiences are what you make them. Because you and I probably have interacted with so many cooks in our careers where it's just a come in clock in, clock out, don't ask questions, don't form a relationship with the, like you have a relationship with David Kin at the end of that.
It might not be like your best friends or you're texting each other every day, but like he has your email in his inbox. So if you ask him for something in four years, he at least knows who you are. And so that, that I think, gets missed with a lot of people. And, and they, and they think of it just as, oh, I'm a herb picker.
I'm a glorified whatever, Bruno Cutter, you know, when in, when in reality it's like there's so much benefit that can be, gained from that. And I think if we were to like chart it out, like time spent and then value provided, you know, there would be kind of like an inflection point where it's like, okay, if you're staying here for three months, you're not really extracting that much more value.
But it's like, if you only stay for two days, it's kind of like, well, you maybe didn't spend enough time here.
Yeah, no, for sure. And like, you're totally right? Like I only spent like less than six months at Admin Resa, and Ken still remembers I went, I went to get at Admin Resa and he came up to our table and you know, like, it's actually kind funny cuz he didn't go to any other table that day and people were wondering like, who is that guy?
It's like, that was, it's just that guy that used to work there for five months.
Yep,
But it's like, you know, stuff like that. It's like, for me that's, that's a huge value. Like huge.
Totally, totally. So we can talk about man Resa, if you want. I, I wanted to talk about your time at Comme,
uh, in, in, in Oakland. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that was one of your kind of like formative chef to Bart, kind of like
Yes, yes.
So your wish Chef James. What did that experience kind of impart on you or kind of talk, talk the listener through kind of like going from culinary school student to like really getting into the dirt there.
What were some takeaways, some lessons, some kind of like maybe impactful stories. I know the listener really likes to hear like intense days of service or like moments when you feel like you really pushed through an obstacle. Talk to, talk to us a little bit about your time at Comy.
My time at called me was hard, but it was hard for like a very different reason. It is funny cuz the name is Kmi, but the shelter parties, they're all basically, they're all chef parties. It's a small kitchen
no commies
they are no Commis. Yeah. And you do everything. You have two dishes, you do every step of it, which is really cool. And I know a lot of restaurants do do that, but, This is my first time, like experiencing it.
And I started on meat station, which was like the end goal. And I was nervous as hell. Like I didn't even, I don't even think I touched meat cooking at all before,
Yeah. Why would, why would you,
yeah, exactly.
ST positions. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
For the listener. I hope you're realizing a little bit of the details that Ki's highlighting here. So things that as you go to an interview or a, a trail, if it's a working interview or even if when I bring up in a piece of content, you should look for details in how a restaurant is set up and operates on the day to day that get you excited.
Any of, if any of the dot points that Ki's bringing up here are like, oh my goodness, that that is totally missing from where I'm. And it would be crazy for me to try to get set up in a quick manner while being quiet. Like, I don't know how to do that. There are kitchens who operate in this way. And I think just hearing these stories Ki is like valuable for someone to hear, especially like if they're early on and they're thinking about kind of like, what kind of kitchen do I go into?
And I get that question all the time from people who are like, well, I've been in this kind of sheltered culinary school environment and I don't really know what to look for in a kitchen. And so as these stories come through, like it might seem, you know, just kind of like off the cuff for you and I, cuz we've been in this industry for so long, but for the newbie it's like, it's really, really valuable.
What I, what I wanted to ask you as a follow up here is, I remember when you and I were talking about like what our first kitchen was gonna be outta culinary school. I distinctly remember you wanting to prioritize a place where the chef owner was like, not just on the past but ideally like on the line almost every single night.
And I think James at, at at comis gave that. To Can you talk a little bit about why that was important to you in a, in a job?
You know, I think this was after Rea right? Or was that Yeah, so
I think.
[00:17:21] Ki's Time at Aubergine
it, it was, you know, I've been rea I loved working with the Chef de cuisine jp. He was amazing. He was like my role model. I wanted to be just like him and. As much as that was true, and I saw him as like, like the, like top of the top there was, there's stuff that when Kim comes in and he pushes you or he makes you think about something, or he tells you what he is passionate about, like a, and then like a certain dish that he was inspired by and he would tell me like, just ato, like, you know, I picked this this morning, or, the title pool dish.
He's like, I went to the title pool and I saw this and this and this. Like, stuff like that is so impactful when you're young and then you see the vision of that restaurant, of that menu. So it's like, it's like a direct, you're getting it from the source, you know, like if he's coming in every day and he's like that motivated and that excited.
It makes me motivated and excited. And as much as JP was great, like he couldn't have done that at that restaurant. So for that reason, I, I just wanted to go to a place where the chef was there and he was coming in and he wanted to like, work the line and I could, I could like see his passion because it's so, like, you could feel in the air, you know, I mean, te you terrified for stuff, but the reward, the, the trade off is that you're, that like the passion kind of runs through the whole team, you know?
And for the listener too, getting a sense of, are you doing that enough for your team? Like if you're a manager and the last time that you talked about your philosophy was seven months
Yeah.
it's any wonder you're probably worried about your staff's motivation. Okay. So I wanna, I wanna keep going here. So how long, how long did you spend at Comey and then, and then did.
Go into Obje as a manager, or were you kind of like a Chef de Paree when you started at Obje?
I was about, I was at for about a year and then I actually helped them open their, They opened a restaurant in, I'm Not too great with my location in, in Oakland, but they opened, they opened another restaurant and I helped them with that for a little bit. And then, you know, at that point I was kind of burnt out.
Yeah.
When I say it was like a traditional occasion, it was like, it was like 15 hours a day and it was like nonstop. And, you know, for a whole year you're just terrified about, about the next day getting stuff on done on time. And I was still so young, but I was like, oh no. Like, is this like, am I regretting this?
You know? And you know, we, I think every, every cook goes through that at least once. If you don't, I, I mean, props to you, but,
I had the same thing, man. I
so actually I did front of the house for a bit. I just had to, uh, I thought I would go into wine, so I was kind of, shadowing the wine, person that called me. And then when I opened, when I helped them with the other place, I, did front the house.
It was only for, it was really fun actually. Like, it was different. I was learning a lot and I got to kind of interact with guests in a different way. Not as like a, just like a, you know, me cook. You know, I kind of learn how to like joke with people and not to touch some, you know, not to like talk too much with one table.
Like, I really enjoyed it. And then, you know, the whole mentality is very different, right? With the front of the house team and the back, the house, especially if it's like a more casual place. It was really fun, but I realized during that time that I did wanna get back into the kitchen and actually they put me in the kitchen at that restaurant.
But yeah. And then what was the original, the question?
Did you get brought in as a manager or, or did you start as kind of like a chef to partee and then work your way
I started out as a commi basically.
Huge.
I went from basically kmi to septic cuisine in span of seven years.
Crazy
All I, I
talk. Talk. Yeah. Talk about that
yeah. So, okay, so I was burnt out and and I also just came, I also just came off of work in front of the house and I didn't know, like where I stood and I was like, okay, I'm gonna just find anything one more chance.
So I started at three places and the other two were pretty similar, just a little bit more intense maybe. And then I, when, I remember when I drove down to Albertine and I, like, I, I kind of hit that curve where I saw the beach and I was like, whoa, this is beautiful. Like, it's one of the most beautiful places in the world, Carmel, Big Sur area.
But I remember. The scene, that beautiful site parking near the restaurant, kind of walking into like sand and like seagulls. You can hear it. And, and then I go in the kitchen, only the chef and like one cook is there. And that cook just came in from like wearing beach clothes. And she brought in like this like little tray of all locally foraged, like little flowers and herbs.
And they seem so relaxed and like, like didn't know what they're about. But then like, it wasn't like an, it was like still a hardworking kitchen, but it's just so different. And I was like, like I think I'm in love with this place. Like, it was so cool. I go downstairs, there's a fish tank with abalone and like seaweed and crab.
I'm like, what is, like, what is this place? It's so crazy. And I just remember like work, like starting there the first day and it was like everyone was happy. They weren't afraid to like talk. No, like talk to me, I should say. Explain everything like. It was a whole different experience from what I was used to, and I was so in love with that.
Just like, yeah, that was just like immediately I was like in love with that place.
Quick 22nd mirror to how my experience was because it is shockingly similar to what you're talking about. So got burn out at French laundry, went to work at a butcher shop in the front of the butcher shop for three months. Immediately got that moment where I was like, okay, I feel what an eight hour day feels like compared to a 14 hour day.
This is so much more relaxed. Oh my goodness. I'm actually getting like a, a paid lunch break where I can sit down for 30 minutes. This is crazy. But I had that moment where I was like, oh my goodness. I, I want to give fine dining a try. One more time. I went to Norway, you went to Carmel. And I did the same thing where I, like I I, I started on an entre mat station cuz the team was so small.
There was only four cooks. I, I think you guys were probably around the same time, but we didn't have any commies at, at at least fer. And then I became executive sous chef. So it was like, it's, that's so funny that like this like, oh, and the thing that I wanted to ask you about on this b because of why it was so interesting for me to go to Norway in comparison to going back to New York, going back to Chicago, trying to f find out another, you know, even European city that was more on the fine dining map like Copenhagen. What attracted me to the restaurant in Norway so much was the fact that they didn't have any Michelin stars and Ogen, if I'm unless I'm wrong, was the
same. Was there something there to going into a restaurant that didn't have Michelin stars in comparison to one that did have them, that was attractive to you or that you would kind of give to as advice to someone?
No, 100%. It was, it was definitely one of the factors. It's like you, like I, I feel like when you work at a Michelin Star restaurant, or where if you are in a place where you get reviewed, you feel the need to follow a certain. Step a certain, like you have to have this, you have to have these, like, it's like you let go of all that.
It's not intense cuz you're actually cooking for the guests. Like there's no stars. You're cooking for the guest, the guests come in and you're doing the best for that.
As opposed to cooking for the guide maybe would be
And as, as much as chefs like to say that they don't, they do like, and, and they should like, it's a very important guide. But you know, a guest comes first.
And I think when you do focus on that, the intensity is a little different. It's still, it's still the same, but it's a little different. You know, it's not as like I just feel like it's a little bit less one-sided. And that was a huge factor for me. Like, just kind of like going, letting go of that Michelin And because you know, when coming out of culinary school, you and I were like, we're working at the best restaurant, we're working at three Michelin stars. I'm gonna have a three Michelin star restaurant. And. You know, and then you get to see all your different points of views and then you kind of like, you know, follow, what do you feel is right?
For me, it was at what cost. It was like, oh, well I'm gonna have to like trample people over. I'm gonna have to like burn people out. I'm gonna have to. Come up with a, a, either a ton of money myself or find an investor who's I'm, I'm gonna be beholden to this person. Now, again, to your point about the guest, it's like, I'm not, my business is no longer for the guest.
It's like returns for my investor at this point in time. Or, or worse, you have the investor who is like, you're just cooking for their friends all the time. Like there, there's so many dynamics at play in fine dining that, you know, for movies like the menu coming out are finally coming to light for people it has been a crazy, like 18 months of food media.
But going, going back to Obje time, can you talk a little bit about when, when you go and, and officially get that management position for the first time? I have so many people who ask that question of, I'm going from contributor to the one managing the contributors. And I certainly had a lot of whiplash when I got that asked for the first time.
Did you experience the same?
Whiplash from the team.
Yeah. From the team or from yourself For like, the way that it felt for me and the way that I describe it to people is I got the knife taken outta my hand and I got handed a clipboard and it was like, whoa, this is weird. Because I'm so used to valuing my contribution to this operation by my ability to make sauces or my ability to butcher, or my ability to get set up on time or my ability to plate.
And it's kind of like, it's not like you're not doing that anymore, but the metrics by which your ju your success is judged change when you become a manager. And that really fucked with me. I guess that's what, that's my question is did it fuck with you too.
It did went a different way, like, You know, I, I don't feel like I felt that way about like the clipboard thing until now, like when I actually became a chef. Like, it's so much hard to just, it's so like cooking. You've realized, actually James said this to me recently, he was, he said, cooking's the easy part when you become a chef, like all you wanna do is cook, but you never can now.
Right.
I, I haven't thought that way I told him now, but when I was at Aine it was easy transition for me because I think I put in the work to prove that I was worthy of being a sous chef. You know, like I would help people with their prep. I would make dishes for the menu. Like I would just try my best to prove that I was a manager and that you would like me as a manager.
What ended up happening though, was that, you know, people always say like, you can't expect him to be as good as you because that's the reason you got promoted. And, you know, when people would mess up, I would get very, very upset. I, and then I was like, usually I'm not that upset in the kitchen until it hits like a certain point.
And at a certain point I was like hitting it so much and I was like, okay, this is not good. Like, you know, I don't wanna be this person and I don't wanna get this angry cuz I'm literally like shaking. I have to like walk outside and just like, you know, just like uncontrollable anger. And it's like, that was the hard part for me as a manager.
Everything else kind of came, you know, I learned, I learned through the steps that, the funny thing about this is like Justin Cogley was so patient with me throughout this whole step. Like from me being a sous chef to me being a chef de cuisine, he was so patient with me, let me make my mistakes. And obviously my cooks also let me make the mistakes, which I'm super grateful for.
But just that was the hardest part for me. Everything else kind of. You know, you, you learn and you kind of grow. And I was, you know, I was, the one thing, I think my strong trait is I'm really adaptable, so I feel like I was able to change for the better relatively quickly. But you know, it's, it's almost like steps, little baby steps where you take every day.
If you and I were to sit at the counter at Comey, or, you know, I, I haven't been to Ogen, so I don't know how clearly you can see the kitchen from when you're sitting sit seated and having a meal. But I think that, you know, it'd be fun for you and I to do this in the future, but let's say hypothetically we were to do it like right after this
Yep.
and we're looking at one of the line cooks who's just like crushing it.
Like they're clearly on top of their shit. Can you describe, because I have this, this question come from people who are like, how do I stand out at work? Or how do I like be be a visible high performer in my kitchen environment, if we see someone who's crushing it, Can you maybe like put yourself in that hypothetical and describe what you're seeing with someone who is like, just on their station and I, I call it total station nomination, but like, what are you seeing when, when you see someone operating at that
I mean, at that level it's like no extra steps whatsoever. Nothing extra on the station whatsoever. You have exactly what you need. Every move is calculated. You have no, like, you're not standing there and you're setting it up, so you don't even have to think. You just like, you just dance, you just move left and right and there's no, nothing extra.
And like, you know, those people that do crush it, like total station domination, they're, they're built in a way that's like, they're like, they're so minimal that, and then they work so efficiently that it's like, you almost feel like you can, like you're, they're helping everyone around them too. Just, just cuz they're so like, like, It's like so natural, so elegant.
Like, just like they're like moving so like fast, like not fast. It's just like, it's like a dance and, yeah, it's just like people, when you think about it, you can set it up so like, even to the point where it's like, the spoons are set on your right hand cuz you're right-handed and then left hand has this, like, when you set up your station, it's just like, you can see it, you can see the thought process.
It's like, I wouldn't do it that way, but the way they do it makes sense for them. It's, it's really cool to see. And I, I do like tell my cooks all the time, like, this is how I would set it up, but you should set it up to how you should do it. You know, like, yeah.
Yep. A hundred percent. And, and, and, that is also something that you learn over time. That, and that's to your adaptability piece where it's like you have to sometimes get in somebody else's. Car and drive it and acknowledge like their mirrors are here and they decided to position their seat in this way cuz they're kind of a little bit short and their steering wheels like up here.
And then it's like, it's not that you can step into someone else's station setup and crush it the same way that they can. And that's what I think like that, that's what I try to teach, man. It's like you, you can, you can have these principles like you're talking about like nothing extra. So if you look at your station right now and you have like a gajillion extra ninth pans on your station just in case it's like why are those there?
Do you know what I mean? Like, this is not necessary. You should probably put those back in Dish. Anything else stand out there about like your time as a chef to Paree? Because I wanna talk about bar maze next, but in that ob jean kind of chapter, anything stand out there or maybe talk about what it was like to get the Michelin start.
Oh yeah. I mean, you know, the, the good thing about, you know, the, the thing about Aine, which I really loved, was that there's always events and there's always something to keep things exciting. It's not like you come in, clock in and do your best and then leave. There's like an event happening every month.
And they're all very different events. And that was so cool. Like that kept me, kept me engaged throughout my whole time there. And Justin was really good about, you know, taking different people and like having a sort of a different mindset to most restaurants. You know, we did those trips. The, we went to Japan and Hong Kong and that was, you know, for some of those skies, like they never stepped outside of the US or even like the West coast.
And for them to go like take a 14 hour train plane to Hong Kong is insane and so inspiring. And you know, the Mission Star was, it was like, for me it was a little bit bittersweet cuz that was my second or third year at Chef Cuisine and you know, you always think you're crushing it, but then you know, when you get like something that has like a.
It's like, it's like a, a set thing, you know? It's like you have one mission star and it's like, even though it was our first year and all that, and I think, you know, they're set to do better in the future. Just like if I wanted mission to come. This is me personally, by the way, not a junior as a whole, but yeah, I was like, if I, I didn't want it to come, but if it was gonna come, I want to at least like try to hit two.
Got it.
so that was like kind of soul crushing for me a little bit. But then it also was motivating for me to like try to get another one. But then, you know, like me personally because after that mission and star, it started to kind of something else kind of similar to like, my priorities were a little different now and I didn't really like that.
And this is like, again, this is me personally not averaging. And I think that's when I decided like I, maybe it's time to move. Like move on to something else. Because as much as I was enjoying it, I aine and I really loved the team hemisphere and it was like, I feel like we were so close. And like we were like working at the most optimal level.
We just had a renovation and I was like, I could have gone anything I wanted. And that's when I was like, you know what? Actually I have to go. And like, it's hard to describe that. It's like people are like, you have everything going for you. It's like, well, that's the point. Like, I like, I don't want that.
Yep. It's like an onwards and upwards kind of, kind of moment. When,
[00:32:02] The Birth of Bar Maze
how did Bar Maze just come, come to be as a concept? How did, how did you get involved in it? And, and then maybe talk to, to the listener about some learnings that you had going from chef to cuisine to, you know, being involved this heavily in a project.
So Ma was supposed to open early on before the pandemic. So they had a space, they had it all built out, and then the pandemic hit and it was a project between Justin Park, Tom Park, who are the owners currently. Justin is a head park vendor at a pretty famous, bar here called Part of the Apron.
It was a joint project between them and a, and then a patrol friend sheriff here. After the pandemic and like all this stuff happening, they kind of split ways. And because of the mutual friend I was looking for a chef job and I was asking him for advice and he was like, well, if you want, you can step into this project for me.
Just take it over completely. And, and then I came they flew me out here and I just, I met Justin and Tom and they were at, at the time. I was not interested in working with people that I thought was so like, you know, at this time there was a whole Abuse, the Blaine whistle thing and all this, like all this stuff, right?
So I wanted to meet people that were gonna support my vision for the environment that I wanted to create. And I don't even, like, the restaurant didn't even matter at that point. It was just like, I don't meet people that actually wanna do the right thing. And when I came here and I met Justin and Tom, like I just knew immediately he was like, yep, these are the guys.
And you know, when I saw the space, it was, it's very small. It's beautiful. It's a beautiful restaurant, but it's, the kitchen is like small than a food truck.
Wow,
we have, we have one single door fridge and it's so insane. But you know, like the cool thing about this too is like, I'm starting to realize how much I can make stuff work and how much that they're willing to make stuff work for me.
And that was huge. The transition, you know, The transition was, I was so motivated at this point that like the, the food and stuff, not, not that it was easy or anything, but it was like, it was, it kind of came natural. And then the, you know, like building a team was also kind of came natural. It was, it just seemed like a, all the pieces were kind of fitting.
The hardest thing right now is just to like
keep improving, I guess. Yeah. But so the whole concept of Maze is that, and I know this has been done in the past, but, Justin's like a world class bartender and the whole point is that we're gonna mix, everything. So like, maze is short from the word Japanese, Japanese word mazeru which is like to mix stir or mingle.
So we're like talking about mixing with different cultures, different cuisines, different styles, but also, mixing food with the cocktails. So we do a tasting menu. It's all paired with cocktails. It's about five courses, but you get little things before, little things after. And they're not like full on cocktails.
They're built for flavor. Kind of like if you go to like bar again, Yamamoto in, in Japan, it's like that kind of alcohol. And but like the fun part about this is that for every course I make, I can adjust every little aspect and he can adjust every little, like, every little aspect. It's not just wine, you know, it's like, I'm not saying it's not just wine, but you know, wine.
You have to kind of pick and choose. And then there are times when you're kind of like, I wish just had a little bit more acid or a little bit more like earthiness And like he can do that. He can literally add that and I can add, but it's like, it's a really fun dynamic, but it takes way longer to complete that pairing than it does like a typical wine pairing.
Cause he also has, he's also working with ingredients and I'm working with ingredients. So it's like, it's fun. It's always like changing, but you can't really see it, you know,
You mentioned that word improv. How do you guys track that? I mean, is this like you're going to try to elevate the level of service or reach a certain level of profitability where you can order in custom ceramics for every single thing? Higher quality ingredients more trained staff. Like, like there's so many metrics by which people judge improvements on, and I'm a big advocate for this too, but I guess, how do you think about it in practical terms
in practical terms. I, I look at it like person by person. We actually have a sitting in the kitchen. I'm, I'm sure I got it from somewhere, but it's like, I think it's actually Thomas Kelly just gets a little better every day and we, we say it, we say it every day. It's like just a little bit better. And if I tell my cooks, Hey, like, this needs to be like this.
Or like, you know, when they cook something and like, It'd be better if this was like a little bit more rested. So it's like you could see that little part right there and they always say it'll be better tomorrow sharp. And it's like, that's the mentality I want to have. But even beyond that, like improving for me is not necessarily like, restaurant base.
So like I always make it a thing that if, a new guy is on the meat station, then I'm rotating to the meats so he can learn this. I'm like, he can learn how to butcher this. He can learn how to, work with this. So like, in terms of improving, I'm trying to improve them as well as the restaurant. You know, like I tell, I told you like they all the guys are from here and they haven't really had that experience.
So I'm, every day I'm in there, I'm just like, guys, this, this could be a little bit tighter, this could be a little bit, you know, cleaner. Trim a little bit more this way. Like, it's just like those improvements. And of course like education. I try to take my staff out to the farms. Just like all that stuff.
And they know, they know about it more than I do, to be honest. But then, you know, I don't really care about buying expensive ingredients to be honest, or like nice ingredients. Those help with prob possibility and it helps us do whatever we want to do. But like just now, we found the farm that's growing all of our stuff for us now, which I've always wanted to do.
And it's like really good stuff too. Like a lot of stuff here in Hawaii is shipped from California and I'm just trying to like avoid that. So, you know, we finally found a farm that, and it's a little bit more expensive Sure. But it's way more worth it and I think it'd be more working for the guests too.
So that's an improvement. There's like, it's like all these little things and just keeping track of every little thing, every little improvement at every level. Yeah.
You talked a little bit about lifestyle and, and the ability to kind of not burn out. So I, so I guess to the person who is potentially making that transition into a place where they're, I mean, like, perfect example, like one of my old chef de cuisines is like running half marathons now.
to like see a lifestyle change and, and a genuine level of happiness.
And I know it's giving this person more longevity, not just in their career, but just like health-wise. How have you kind of incorporated a little bit of that into what your day-to-day looks like, how you, interact with your team, how you spend your days off? Talk to me about.
Man, you know, well, first thing I think was that, that you reduce the hours. I think that's the first thing. I mean, that comes true everywhere, right? So, And oh my God, like you have no idea how hard it is to tell your cooks to come in later. They will not do it. They, you tell to come in at one, they will show up at 12.
And I'm like, go, go get coffee or something. Like, don't come in. You're not allowed to come in. Like, I'll change the menu. So you don't have to come in that early and you're not hustling. Like just don't come in. But like, I'm kind of the same way. Like I don't, you know, I set myself in a situation where I can kind of do the work, throughout the week instead of just every day's packed jam packed And that lets me, you know, it gives me some time, like I can pick a certain day to just go to the gym, come in later, go home a lil early, and, kind of be, have more freedom with my time. You know, we're in Hawaii so it's like, it's kind of days off. are kind of pretty epic to be honest. We, we do a lot of like beach cookouts together.
Which is amazing. Or we, you know, if we're all tired, we just go to like a local Foodland, which is kind of like, like a Safeway, and we just get big bowls of poke and just go to the beach. And it's like, we have like a really fun family like atmosphere here. I think it's kind of like ingrained the culture.
So I never feel like overwhelmed or overworked. And, you know, the way we set it up too is like, we don't have that many cooks, but we have, we have enough that if one person needed days off or want to go to a concert that we, that we allow for that to happen. Or, and in this case scenario it's best for me as a manager is, let's say Justin at Bar Bring is, needs help.
Then we have the resources to put that help over there. And so it's like if you, I don't know if this will work for everywhere, but the way we set it up is so unique in that. It allows for a lot of flexibility and I think flexibility is probably the key thing to make everyone's life a little bit easier.
You know? There's none of the, no, you can't have these days off unless you know, like two people are asking for it at the same time. And I think that's so different cuz like, I certainly was not gonna ask for days off wherever and you probably same thing, right? It was scary to ask for days off.
When, if someone's listening and, and, and they just heard you talk about all of these benefits that you're experiencing, did you land on this in a single day? Did you guys come out of a manager's meeting and you're like, we're gonna do this? Was this a result of a bunch of individual experiments?
Because I think you sent me this piece from Chef Douglas Keenan, who's talking about avoiding dysfunction in his, in his organization. So as you think about like reducing hours, potentially having a little bit less complexity, being kinder as a manager, I think the person who is like the opposite of all of these things might look at that and they're like, yeah, these guys are crazy.
Like, there's no way that I can, you know, start this. So maybe can you talk a little bit about, how you landed on some of these things and then share potential practices that people can take away from this conversation to start to use in their kitchens like tomorrow
Yeah. It, it happened over time, but it definitely hit, I learned about, you know, I, the, the kindness thing. So like, when I say kindness, like obviously stuff goes out in, in a restaurant and bad things happen or people, that certainly I don't live up to the expectations that you have and that happens, but it's, I learned that it's more about just taking 'em outside, talking to them, and being real with them and, and just kind of controlling my anger by doing that.
I just feel like it kind of misdirected the way I, you know, bottled it up. So those things took a long time, but it always was ingraining into my head that there was some level of unfairness between the front of the house and back of the house, especially in terms of pay in fine dining. I always knew that in the back of my mind, but in my head I was thinking, well, I'm gonna become a chef owner one day and they're gonna have to work for someone.
No. Which was what we always said, right? But, it's still in the back of my mind and when I see like, you know, like it's, it's, it's hard to not notice it when you are back in the house, shows up in the most janky car, barely like, own the thrift shops and then the front of the house is driving in in Mercedes and BMW and you're like, what is going on here?
You know, it just doesn't make sense. And so stuff like that, I was very. Adamant when I came to Mazey that this was gonna change. And I, I thought about it for a long time. The way we make it work at Mazey is that we have less staff and we set it up to make it that we could do about 40 covers a night Omakase
so it takes a menu with seven people. Seven including me. So six people. And it's just all like, everyone does everything. Everyone runs dishes, everyone does the dishes. No host and also no phone number. So our owner, Tom, if you have questions about reservations or anything, any inquiries, you just email the email.
So we have one less person doing phones. And what that does is it kind allows all that extra money. And we don't have a dishwasher. We clean all our dishes ourself. Like all that extra money goes into the staff. But also we do like tip share, like very equal. Like everyone is considered a team member not from the house, back of the house.
Yeah. You have different jobs, but you ultimately, everyone does everything and that makes it so, and this model does not work anywhere else. Not, I'm not saying it doesn't work anywhere else, but, it doesn't work for everyone is what I meant. But the way we set it up is like my, my prep cooks start at like 16 like mean we don't really have prep cooks, but,
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
it's like I, that was one thing that was, I was adamant about that to Tommy, Justin.
I was like, I need to make sure my cooks get paid. Like that's my number one thing. And then the rest we can work on.
Got it. Other experiments, things that you guys have tried or, or maybe things that you see other chefs doing where you're like, I would love for us to be able to do that someday. Or, or, you know, potential resources that you've read, whether it's articles or books or interviews you've listened to where you're like, yeah, that's kind of cool.
And I, I we, we should try that.
Hello. There's a lot. Actually one thing I was gonna mention was that with that labor thing and the whole paying more, you know, the thing I didn't want, I didn't wanna mention was that we were able to do that because also, well, some of the labor that we've been doing, like making our own bread is taken out to a local bread shop.
Or, I, I remember when we first opened, I was making these twi cause you know, like for the last two years it was like TWIs, like 5, 6, 7 TWIs. And do you know how long those TWIs make to have like one cook just make it all day long? And I was like, you know what, I'm, we're not this kind of restaurant. I don't need one guy working on a single TWI for like an hour and a half.
So, I start to like, think about it in a more,
I don't know how to like describe the word, but like, I start to think like, okay, we're not back to have a restaurant. We can buy good quality stuff wether it's more shelves from Japan or Tortilla. I, we, we've seen, started buying tortillas from this local company that they, he's a very small operation and he just brings in the corn from Mexico and he's trying to open his own Mexican restaurant, but right now he's just selling it into farmer's market.
And I was like, Hey, make me, make me some now use it in my snacks. So instead of like making these twi at this beautiful tortilla, just, you know, punch it out into little things and it's like people are like, oh, this is cool. And we get to support a local, local business. Same with Bread shop. Like, we serve brioche on the menu and.
There's no way in that kitchen I was gonna make, make brioche. I don't even have a place of store to eggs and flour for it. I was thinking about it realistically, right? Like At Aubergine I was making everything, bread, everything. And I was like thinking like, okay, well the owner of this bakery worked at French Laundry He has an amazing background and he's in the, he's in the Alinea book and like, am I really gonna make better bread than him? I'm not. And I get to support his business, especially when he goes to a downtime. Like I get to order a little bit of extra bread, I can put it on the snacks. It's like, it's such a good interaction.
It's such a, and my cooks won't have to come in and make bread for two hours and we have more space and we have one and then over, over all this maybe one less cook. So more money for everybody. It's like stuff like that is kind of compounds. And makes it kind of overall better for everybody. And you know, maybe like, it might be an ego thing to make it in house or whatever, but it's like, I was just thinking like, I am not gonna make better bread than someone that does it for a living every single day.
And a lot of my guests goes to bread shop, that's what it's called, brush shop. And ask for that brioche, which is so like, which is cool, you know?
The listener might be screaming at their headphones right now because that's, you and I connected over that piece that I wrote called Don't Make It In-House. And, and it's true. Like that's one of the reasons why I wanted to get you on the show today is because I think you reached out and said like, I do this.
Like this is how I run my culinary program is like using a lot of these principles. And so if you're curious on going a little bit deeper, obviously get in touch with Ki, but then I also did a whole episode on this philosophy of just potentially, why don't we see more of this? It's called Don't Make It In-House, and I'd highly recommend people check that out after this.
It'll be linked in the show notes for people I guess.
[00:45:47] How do you measure success?
On the topic of the restaurant bar in general, how do you guys talk about success? Is it more locations? Is it again, more profitability? Is it like we found something that really works, we want to go for longevity? How do you guys talk about that?
For us, like for this specific project, I think success for us is just making sure our teams are happy, but also kind of conveying that food and cocktail works. And that's our number one thing. The second thing is it's, it's just like the, you know, the. Execution of our vision. So what the two things that we want people to feel when they come to Monterey is that the food is delicious, the cocktails are delicious, but it pairs really well.
And setting in an environment which is really fun, like our, our playlists, Tom, our owner, made like people talk about all the time, it's like this place is so fun. Like, it's like, like I've never heard a playlist like this, but it's like everyone, like by the end of the meal people are singing and like, it's like really like, just kind of like into it.
The environment is kind of more relaxed. You're right in front of us and kind of like, like a bar, which is why we named it, you know, bar Mazda not just is you get to interact with all of us, we're all coming out. And you know, it's like really refreshing if, especially for people who's been going out to, all the mission star restaurants, they always say like, this is so fun.
And that's, that's the overall, that's our goal is to be fun, but also show that it works cocktail and food and just having an impact in the, in the industry here. It's like, that's, for me personally, that's like my idea of a success is like, we're making an impact. We're supporting local farmers, local fishermen, local businesses.
And and this is a very, like, people always say like, the island is so small, everybody knows everybody. Like I just wanna do it right by everyone here, especially since I'm new here. And I feel like we're doing that right now. So, yeah.
I I want to talk a little bit about, concept that I certainly got a lot of value from. I know you did too, but I haven't really spent a lot of time digging into how it can potentially apply to someone who doesn't think about this. And it's in relation to getting knowledge and learnings through going out to eat. And so can you maybe speak on the importance of that, maybe some meals that have had an impact on you. And I think most importantly, how someone who has like grippings of culinary knowledge can go out to eat at places and extract knowledge from those meals I hit a certain point in experience where I was like, it actually doesn't make sense for me to Stage
Yes.
Like, I would much rather go in and sit at the bar and order like stuff off of the a la carte menu or like, you know, find someone who will be willing to go in on a tasting menu with me, X, y, Z
Oh yeah. There's, there's definitely a huge, huge bonus in that it's I feel like if you hit. The fundamentals of cooking and you are pretty well adept to that. And you understand how things work on a base level, maybe a little bit more than a base level, but like, if you just understand how things generally are done at that point, I think eating is the number one, number one learning tool to know what a restaurant is like cuz that's the end goal, right?
That's, that's the product that you are building and you get to see it. There's been times when like I go to a restaurant and it's like the smallest thing. I'm like, oh my God, this oyster is so freaking cold. How did they do that? Like, something so stupid like that for me is life changing and like, all I can think in my head is like, wow, like you might, like how did it, did it come like right away?
Like, I don't even know. Like, and it sounds so ridiculous, but you know, if you go into a restaurant without thinking, you're gonna judge them, just really absorb the, the environment, absorb what they're trying to do. And then you eat these meals and you get to see the vision. Sometimes it's not even like, sometimes it's like maybe you have a dish that's not as good, but it sets up for the next dish.
And when you notice that, you're like, okay, maybe not every one of my dishes has to be a home run. Maybe there could be a little fillers that sets it up for the next dish and makes a better impact over there. Like there's so much things are gonna take away, from eating at a restaurant and kind of seeing their vision, see what they care about, also see what they don't care about.
Like, they don't necessarily care about tablecloths. Well, did that impact my dining? No. Okay, then why do we have tablecloths? It's like, you know, it makes you think, and you know, if the end goal is even open an own restaurant, of course you have to experience every other restaurant, see what you like, what you don't like, see, like, what they prioritize.
You know, it's like, it's such an important thing. And you know, for me, I, I'm not really well adept into, like, I haven't, I don't make that much like raw fish dishes and cause like the general idea for me was like every time I go to a restaurant and I, to her a raw fish dish, it's never that good.
Especially tasting venue restaurants and, or sorry. It's good. It's just not memorable. I never had a raw fish dish, so I was like, whoa. Besides maybe LA then that one. But,
Right.
wanted to learn like, okay, what it takes to make like a good fish dish, so a raw fish. And so I started eating a lot of sushi places.
Try to see what textures and stuff they're getting out of it. And it's like, do that. I learned a lot. Yeah, it's just, it's so important that you go out to eat. And I know it's expensive, but you're not making that much money, but it's part of your education, you know?
And it's one of those things where like, you're gonna have to make those decisions regardless. Like you're gonna be asked, how are we gonna do this raw fish thing? And if you're operating from this sense of like an empty shelf, like there's nothing for you to pull from, it's like you're going to, you're gonna fail.
And it's not like it's guaranteed you're gonna fail, but it's not going to be as good as if you were to have this robust memory set of like, oh yeah, when I was at this place in San Francisco, they did it like this. But then when, weirdly, I, I had this experience in Miami and they did it like this, and then what if I combine the two with this thing that we're getting from our fishermen?
And it's like, that's, that's where the magic happens. And I don't think people give enough credit to that, in their careers. And they, and they, they just see it as, as what you said is, it's like, yeah, well I don't really want to splurge and spend $135 on this tasting menu, when in reality it's like, that could be the thing that sets you up for.
You know, getting the
Yeah. And, and another thing is like, you know, ideas are always bounced around, right? It's like you don't, now I know people say like, now you can't make a new dish, which. I, I mean, I don't know if that's true or not, but the thing is like even the idea or the taste that you had in your mind, but you might not remember exactly that way, but let's just say you had this one dish.
You don't remember exactly what it was, but everything that was in there, but you remember that taste and you remember that idea, and then you make that dish, but in your own way with your memory of that taste. Cause you're like, I, I want that flavor in my mouth and I wanna replicate that on my own here.
And it turns out com it could, it could turn out completely different. But that, that memory is so important when you're like making a new dish because you have that taste in your, like, in your memory and you're replicating it that ends up turning different, maybe more your style in your dna and like stuff like that is so important when you're making a dish.
I always got value from this insight that my last chef shared with me, which is you learn a little bit of the quality standards too. So I remember we had this guy who was working with us and he was on pastry station for a little while, and the way that we had it set up, the pastry station and the cheese station kind of were the same.
Like they, the, the pastry station would do the cheese course is a better way to say it. I just remember that my chef came up to me one day and he was, This guy's never been out to eat at a place and order cheese before. Like he needs to go order cheese. Like he said this in passing as I was expediting.
And he was just like pissed off at the guy, you know, for whatever. And it was because he didn't allow the cheese to temper. And it was like a duh kind of, kind of, kind of moment for, for me and my chef, my my chef owner, but like to this guy who didn't have experience going out to eat and understanding that, like that was a part of, again, a quality standard to this thing, to your point on fish texture, you know what I mean?
Like if someone, if someone who is a complete novice who has never done a raw fish dish before, you know, does it with a fish that is not going to have a texture, doesn't slice it in a way where it like actually lends to having a good feel on your pate, it's gonna look amateur-ish. Or it's like, maybe a better way to say it is like the real ones will know kind of thing.
Like if you serve this to a guest who has eaten in every single great high-end bar, and they all of a sudden come and try your snacks and it's like you don't know how to fry something, or you're like, the things that you're frying are too oily or you know something, it ends up being this real detriment to their experience.
But if you were to have just gone out to eat a little bit more and have a bit of an understanding on like. Etiquette things the way different products are treated, and presentation insights. I think that that can really
Yeah. You know, also, I think it's important to eat out throughout your career because you also pick up, you notice different things. You pick up more things as you are growing. So like, sushi is actually a good example for me. Like when I first tried like our actual, like Japanese sushi in Japan. About two, three years ago, it was like, at that time I was like, oh my God, this is amazing.
Like, I don't even know how they did everything. And then I've only had three experiences like this like a style sushi, but one was about a year ago and now I know what's on there, but then I'm not really, so I understand a little bit more. I understand what it is, but I don't understand how they did it.
And then recently for my birthday, I had another meal. So all like very similar format, but, and then I start to realize, oh wow, like they do it this way. And now I'm trying to realize cause I have more knowledge now. I, I, I can see that they do it a little bit differently than other places. Like you should be always growing and because you're always growing, you notice more things.
And it's like three different experiences technically, but same format, same everything, but three different viewpoints. Because of the, because of where I was at in my career, it's like, it's insane. Like the amount of little detail that goes into those kind of meals.
That's the quote, right? Is that no man ever steps in the same river twice. Cuz
Oh, I like that. Yeah.
changes. It's like a, it's like the, it's like the same kind of quote there. And the other thing that I wanted to share with folks is like, go out to eat at the place because the restaurant might not be there the next time you get a chance to go eat there.
Like for everybody who's like, oh I've always wanted to go on to man race. Man race is on my list. I've always wanted to go there. It's like, it's not gonna be a thing a little bit. I had the same thing with like, I would've loved to have eaten at like quilted giraffe. Never got a chance to go. Same with Abu, never got to go.
You know, like it's not that restaurants, all restaurants end up failing, but it's like, just look at the lists. Like go back and look at a Michelin guide from 1994. It's like, whoa. There's not a lot of these places are still
It's, you know, when we were staging and we were like going around looking for restaurants that we knew, and like even half of those are gone. Yeah.
Yes, yes. It's crazy.
Yep.
For example, you know, like, can't go eat there anymore. It's wild. You had this thing that you sent me and I, I want to give you kind of space to, to, to go on it for a little while and it's in reference to KSU knives. So can you talk a little bit about that, that, that ran, I'll post a screenshot on, on here, on YouTube for the kind of the post that you made, but can you give a little bit of background there and, and maybe just talk a little bit o on the topic because I, I, I will admit that I'm a little bit outta my depths here to talk about the, the meaning behind
Yeah. So this is, sorry. The name of the knife is escaping me. It was, I actually don't even know how to say it properly. Kisuki, right? Kisuki. So ki
Yeah, there, there's, there's another. There, there's a way that the, the consonants should be combined that I can't do properly because my Japanese pronunciation isn't correct. But I think most
yeah, so it's a knife. It, it looks eerily similar to a Sam sword and you know, my context of it is obviously a little bit biased cuz a lot of the places I worked is very, Japanese influenced, and right now I currently live in the place that's very Japanese influenced. And, when, and Justin Coley also is very like Japanese influence.
So, I always own this knife to be a meaning of when you receive the title of Executive Chef, you are receive this knife. And so when you see someone in the kitchen using it, especially in the Japanese kitchen, that's the chef. And, and the, the cool thing about this knife is that you can use it for everything.
Slicing fish, cutting meat, it's a very hard neck to use. It's one-sided. It's just not built the way that your normal knife is. And so it's very hard to use. And that's the, that's the whole point of it. If you go on any Japanese knife store, they say Curious again meant for executive chefs, or maybe it says originally meant for executive chefs, but it does say it.
And my thing was, it's kind of like comparing it to, well, first off, like traditionally if this were a Japanese chef and like if you want to pay respect to that culture, I just thought that it was, be more meaningful to keep it that way. But also it's kinda like, for me, the way I describe it is like, if you don't earn it, it's kind of like, the way I see it is like going into your dojo, wearing a black belt when you're not, and that'd be very disrespectful.
Now when it comes to like social media, that's, cuz this is where it stemmed from. I saw a YouTuber who I, who I like, I really like his content, but like, he bought a knife to show it off and use it. And I was like, okay. That's where it kind of like, was like, I don't feel comfortable about that. I always received a knife when I left Aberdine by Justin Coley, that he bought from Japan.
But like, and so like for me it has like a personal meaning. Like, I got this knife, like I deserved it after like many years in industry. Now I'm not saying that people can't use it, right, but like for me it holds a certain value. Just like a black belt holds a certain value and it's just like, For me, it's like recognizing all the work you spent to getting it.
And, you know, actually the cool thing about this is posting on Instagram is that I got a lot of responses and some of them are very valid points, like about why we, like we shouldn't care. I can't think about it on the top of my head, but yeah, like, I just like, it's like a really fun conversation to have, honestly.
Yeah.
That's why I wanted you to bring it up. I, I wanted to kick this ball around with you too, because I think, I think it's fascinating from, from a couple different angles. I mean, like, when I hear that it's like, You can't, I mean, I'm sure you can go to a store and just like buy a black belt, but like I did martial arts when I was really young, and it was kind of one of those things where like, even if I really wanted to do the shortcut move of like, go to the store and buy a black belt, I couldn't get the same black belt that like my instructor would've given me.
Do you know what I mean? Had I reached that, that level. So there wasn't really an option to kind of like circumnavigate the, the, the, the journey and just like go to the, go to the finish line and just buy the, the thing. Which I think is different in this world of crazy e-commerce and Japanese importers and you know, like you can get whatever you want, you know, at any random point in time.
So that's one difference that I see. The other one that is kind of in line with the rant that I go on with like the chef title is like if you take the title and you don't have the skills to back it up, like it's gonna kind of be one of those things that comes out. Like the real, that's back to my, like the real ones are gonna know kind of point. And so I guess like what other, I mean, did any of it change your mind or did, did, did like keep, keep going on it? If, if, if
No, like, okay. So in terms of, it did change my mind, you know, ultimately when I talked to people, it was kind of like, who cares? Let 'em do what? Yeah. Like, like you said, the real ones know and like,
Yeah.
You know, I guess in terms of social media, I was like, I guess, and using the black belt analogy again, it's like, well, if you're not a black belt, let's just say you're a brown belt and you are making a YouTube thing on a certain martial art, but you just happen.
You just wear the black belt cuz you don't practice anymore, but you're just showing people what to do. It's like, that's how I thought about it in my head. It's like you're doing it under the guise. I mean, they, they, first off, I don't even think they know that that knife is meant for executive chef, but
That's why I wanted you to talk about it here, cuz I didn't, I didn't know. I mean, like on this knife rack that I have behind me, like there's a couple of like K ttip style knives, but they're not, they're, they're not single bevel and I don't think they're exactly the style of knife that you're describing.
Cuz I immediately thought like, oh my goodness, have I done the same thing? Like, I have, have I disrespected this in any way, shape, or form? And I was like, well, I don't, I don't think so. But then at the same time it was like, it wasn't something that I was even a, a aware of as, you know, kind of like a,
Yeah, I, well,
you could get at
I do know about KTP and I, I was thinking more along the, the, the long in almost shaped one.
Is it the one where the tip comes in the reverse? You know what I mean? Because I'm used to it.
Yeah, yeah.
on, give one second. Because
Right. But the, the long, like ink style
Yeah, the long one, and it has a single bevel on it. And is it the one where the, where the tip comes the other way?
No, no, no. That's, that's a file. Yeah.
It's this. Okay. That's what I thought. But again, to, to the point on commerce and people like this is a Knox made for home line. Like it's at a certain point where it's like, brands probably have these focus groups where they show a bunch of people,
You like. That's cool.
styles, and people are like, oh, I want, I want that one.
You know what I mean? And so then they make the knives in this style, which is gonna be another thing that I wanted to bring up with you, where it's like, well, okay, so now, so now what are we to do? Because it's like there are these knives that are available on the market and they're shaped in this way, that to your point, are stereotypically reserved for people who have this level of experience, and now they're just available for anybody to buy
I mean, they were always available to buy. It was just, I guess
Right.
it was like a, to be honest, it was kind of like a in the moment kind of thing. I was just like, when I saw it, I was like, huh. Which is why I posed it as kind of a question. And like, after talking to a bunch of people and all, some of the people actually from Japanese kitchens, they're like, you know, they don't really care.
Like, they're like, whatever. Like
Hmm.
if And they actually said that their chef does use a K ttip knife, the zuki style. And none of them, none of the rest of them do. But like, they couldn't care less. If they don't care less, then I couldn't care less. It was just like a, I thought it was like a fun conversation to have and actually everyone I talked to was really cool.
Got to see different, like, perspective on it and yeah, it was like a fun little conversation we had.
[01:02:11] Being Nervous and dealing with that
There was one dot point that I, you, you had mentioned a couple different times and I want to ask you about it before we get into some rapid fire questions here. And it's in regards to the word that you mentioned a couple times nervous. And so I guess, do you still experience nervousness? And if not, how did you overcome it?
And, and maybe the most important thing is if there's someone listening who is like, guys, I suffer from the same thing going into service. I'm nervous. Go set. Setting up on a busy Saturday, I'm nervous trying to go ask my executive chef a question about something that I screwed up. I get nervous going on as stge.
I get nervous. Like when a food critic comes in, I get nervous. I, I, I'm just so nervous all the time, I guess. What has been helpful
I literally live on this state of nervousness every day. It's, it's like still struggling and, you know
Yeah.
yeah, there's like, I don't think there's any remedy for it. It's just like, you know, at a certain point sometimes you think like, well, you're nervous because you care about it, so it's good. But
Right.
yeah.
So.
people.
I'm scared about every service that we go into. I'm scared if the certain, if a fish is not 100%, if, you know, if my cooks run 100%, like I'm nervous about every little aspect, doing events, I get very nervous cuz, you know, and that's when adaptability and like, you know, making your station set up perfectly is important.
But, you know, you're so nervous about that nowadays. I, I'm actually extra nervous to talk to guests and I think, honestly, I think Covid hit me pretty hard in terms of that, human to human interaction because something, and I can't trace where it came from, but I, I, when I talk to guests, like I can't, I get so nervous and I can't connect, like, and guests, a lot of guests really like it when I come to the table and talk to them, but, I, I seriously, and I, I've actually talked to other chefs about this, and they feel the same way.
Younger chefs, like similar to our range, and they're like, yeah, when I go to the table, I'm just like, I'm so awkward and nervous. And they can see it. It's like, we're like, we don't know what to say. We like when they, like, when they ask a question, you're like, stumbling.
And then I'm like, why can't I get past this? Like, I became so socially awkward, but with my team, I'm fine with everything else. I'm fine. It's just like, I don't know where this came from. And that makes me super nervous every night going into service, I'm like, oh my God, I have to talk to people. I like, there's not much place to hide in Majay.
It's so small. I'll like open the fridge door right before I go out to a gas and it's like, look into the fridge and be like, okay, calm down, calm down. And I'm just gonna talk to people, you know, people that request to talk to me. So it's like, I'm always nervous, I'm always scared every day. I wish I could, I wish I was a remedy for it, but there really isn't.
I mean, hopefully it's helpful for the listener to just know that like they're not the only one that feels these things. Like even you with your, I mean we, we, we've been cooking for what, like 13 years now? Something like that. And, and, and it's still, you know, something that, that, that ails people. I mean, what really helped me was like just coming up with a script that you always start off a conversation with,
Yeah,
you know, because every single, if every single time you go to a table, it's like you're trying to like, pay attention to their hair or what jewelry that the person is wearing or what brand of suit that the guy has on.
It's just like, that's exhausting, you know? But if you ever listen to like the, really, it's not sleazy, but like the people who stand there at Costco and give out, like talk about the brand. They're so good at talking to people, man. Cuz it's just like the volume that they get is just so good and it's. Don't make your entire spiel a script. But it's like give yourself a couple of those anchor points, you know? And this is for the listener. You don't have to take my advice, but it's like, that helped me a lot when I, when my chef started to say like, Hey, you need to go start talking to tables. Cuz I had the same thing.
I was like, just freeze up, get nervous, don't know what to say, I'm super awkward. You know, like, and that ultimately helped me, you know, get to a good place.
[01:05:40] Rapid Fire Questions
Let's get into some rapid fire ones. So this is called the Repertoire podcast. I think most folks will know that the repertoire, your repertoire is this kind of like set of skills that you take with you. When I say that word repertoire and you were to think of like this thing that you take with you always, or if like Ki had to start back at the beginning, but you knew everything you knew now, what would you say is the most valuable part of your reper?
The, I would say the adaptability is like I, I definitely feel like I focus my early career to be a very adaptable, and I think Aine actually is a place where you learn that very immensely. Some days you have seven of the best chefs in the world come to do an event there, and you have to be super adaptable for them.
And like, so if I had to just retain one thing is adaptability is, is so important in our industry. Like, you can't be rigid. You can't, even, even those like top end chefs, like as, as well, they were able to get there because of their adaptability of course. But as rigid as they are in their, structure and everything, when they come to do events, it shows, that's when it shows like they're super adaptable.
They make it happen at that level with nothing. And that, that kind of stuff is, I think, the most important skillset You.
I guess if someone's listening, they're like, yeah, I guess if someone had to take me outta my station or ask me to cook in a new kitchen, I would fall to pieces. Like are there any things that stand out or maybe things that you teach or cooks on, like helping to increase their level of adaptability or kind of strengthen that adaptable muscle for them?
Oh, it's, you know, it's experience. I think. The only thing I can do is take him out to those places and make him uncomfortable. Like, I certainly got my share of it. Albertine just constantly working in places. No fire cooking on the beach for people, like trying to keep things cold and a hot summer day, like outside, like all these things build into your memory bank and the next time you see it, you can like, kind of, or you can even prevent it the next time by being more prepared.
But like, it just, you just have to experience it.
And it's one of those like, it's gonna suck in the moment. I think that's what, one thing that's like uncomfortable about that, that skill, like building the adaptable skill. It's like kind of to your point, the only way you can do it is to step outta your comfort zone and literally be in that moment of like, Oh shoot.
Like we have no heat source right now. How are we gonna figure that out? And in that moment it's gonna suck, but like you're gonna take that suck and you're gonna like bring it with you to the next thing. So that instead of having it be, oh my goodness, we don't have a heat source, you're going to look at the environment and you're gonna say, Hey guys, there's no heat source here.
Like, has anybody thought about that? And you're just gonna give yourself
You know, it's funny cuz stuff like that sometimes ends up becoming the most epic things. Like we had a, we did a beach party for one of our events called rediscovering Coastal Cuisine. And we had, you know, very, very famous chefs come John Shields, Chris Costell. And we were at the beach and we were cooking and we're like, and it's, it's impossible to bring chairs down to this beach cuz it's like a private one in bicker. And we made. Chairs out of logs, just, just using kitchen string, just tying it up like crazy. And then we're like, we didn't bring enough ice. And they're all melting, so we just threw all the drinks into the, the ocean. We just tied it up and just threw it into the ocean and just kept it there. And the ocean over there, super cold.
And like, stuff like that. Like when, when the chefs came in, they're like, what is happening here? You know, all the fish we just use like sticks and like put it to the, you know, like what you see in like cartoons, like, just like over the fire, just hanging in. Like that was not planned. We just were not prepared.
And so we had to adapt. And what ended up happening was the most like, epic, like, kind of like really cool scene of like this wild chaos happening, but kind of cool, you know? Yeah, really like epic things can come out if you're like, if you can kind of not freak out, take a step back and try to be tactical.
Try to see what you have and then like make the best out of it. Like something really cool can happen.
Believe it or not, I'm actually having Chef
Oh, nice.
the show next week. Is there anything that you'd recommend that I ask him about
You should ask for some Charlie Trotter stories. For sure. No Charlie Trotter,
Okay. Got it.
I had asked Smith like a month ago actually. Yeah, it was, it was so different from anywhere else you could die. It was like, it was in, it was really, really cool. Yeah.
Make sure you subscribe if you aren't subscribed to the podcast, so you can catch that interview. So it's a Saturday morning, I call it, you know, maybe it's not Saturday, maybe it's Sunday, Monday, your first day of your weekend, and you kind of stumble into your kitchen to make eggs for yourself.
Oh, sunny side up for sure. I it's just easier to eat for me. I could just kind of like out, actually, I have a funny thing. We used to sou the eggs a lot at at Mak. And we for the egg yolks, and we had all the egg whites that were, you know, kind of runny. And when I was like working out pretty intensely, my cooks thought it was so gross.
I used to drink the egg whites that are like half cured, half like milky. It's pure protein and it's, it doesn't, it's not pleasant, but I was like, I would, I could just keep a cup of that in my fridge. I could just down it so fast, so efficient, kind of gross. But,
What's a book that's been particularly impactful for you in your career, and maybe this is management related or creativity or, or business or
for sure, like the biggest impact that, bucks had recently is unreasonable hospitality I mean, I had goosebumps throughout the whole thing. It, it was so well written and it was so like to the, like to my core that it made me rethink a lot of stuff. And Justin parked the bartender and I actually read it at the same time, and we were both like,
Nice.
my God, I do that.
The stuff that he tells you not to do. I'm like, oh, I do that. And like, so like, it's ingrained in my mind now. I'm like, every day I go into work, I'm like, I can't do this. I can't do this, I can't do this. And every time I do it, I catch myself. I'm like, oh, damnit. Like I did it. And it's like, it's like all these like little things are just, you're never taught anywhere else.
You know? It's, and you, you're not taught management when you're a chef. You're, you just learn it. And also in like, in terms of the way he does it, like you're not taught that way. It's like the way we're taught is like the chef's word is absolute. That's it. Even if it's wrong, it's absolute. And that's like a double edged sword for sure.
But it's such a different perspective and if you want to make change, especially like, like I want to make change in the, in the restaurant culture in my kitchen, so, So back for,
You somehow get a call right after this interview that you've just won an all expenses paid trip to eat at your dream restaurant, and when you get there, there's someone you've always wanted to talk with, waiting to have dinner with you. What is the restaurant and who is that person?
I've always wanted to go to Ex Saari cuz it's just the place that I think is the kind of restaurant I want to go to. I really got it. Cause like we mentioned, it might not be there, so I have to go. But, Anthony Bourdain for sure. It's just my number one, like I was, I felt like I lost a friend when he, and yeah, I don know him at all, but I feel like I lost a friend when he passed away, so, and he has, I'm sure he has incredible stories.
Is that what you would hope to talk to him about? Just like get, get
Yeah. Cool stories and then like just. His perspective on the industry like and culture and life where it's headed?
You mentioned, well, this is an interesting one. I, I call this the meta job interview question. So you sit a new cook down, they maybe just trailed with you for the day, and after the shift you sit down and, you know, have a one-on-one conversation with them to try to gauge whether or not they'd be a good fit. You ask them a question, but instead of the answer to the question, you're maybe looking at how they answer the question. Are there any things that you look for in the way that people carry themselves, how they answer questions? Maybe you can give an example of some Quest questions that you ask during interviews that help you get a better sense of who someone is and if they're a good candidate to work with you.
Oh. You know, I, I certainly don't look for a certain thing. If they're nervous, it's okay if they're, I should probably be better if they're if they're confident, that's okay too. The, the number one thing I I focus on is how well they work with others. So if I give 'em a situation, if I was like, if you were really busy and someone else next to you was also busy, like how, how would you, how would you act?
And you know, it's like such a, that's kind of like a, such a simple answer. It's like, well, I'll try to do my best and I'll help the other guy. But like sometimes when you ask questions that are kind of very simple like that, you can kind of really gauge what their mindset is. You can see how far or how far along in the industry there are they've been.
Cuz it's like, you could kind of see it going through their head like, well really I will do this. But you know, like, like stuff like that. Like it's the way they talk about certain situations. I think it's very important. Cuz I think team mentality is everything.
Huge. Last question Ki before we let people go here and figure out where to ask questions and ultimately book a, a seat with you guys is, and you might have said this already, but what do you think? I always ask my guests, what do you think chefs gonna be doing better to help the next generation? And I guess, is there anything else that you are thinking about, things that you've seen or maybe parting pieces of advice for
You know, I think like chefs should definitely try to work on different aspects of their life a little bit more. I felt very, I felt like I missed out on a big part of my life or just reading. I know chefs are well traveled and they eat out a lot. They do. But this, like certain aspects like working on self-improvement reading just in general or fitness.
Health. Like, there's so many things that I think maybe they could do internally first before they go out and try to change the restaurant or the kitchen that you run. Like sometimes stuff like that that you do, makes an impact on the rest of the team for different reason. Like I know certain chefs has had a baby and their priorities changed and it became way nicer.
Chefs. It's like because they're, because they had to change and stuff like that. It's like, yeah. Like they could be doing better by being better themselves, I guess.
That's huge. Where do you want people to go? Either follow you, get in touch follow the, follow the restaurant, and, and just, we'll le we'll leave everything in the show notes, but I guess
Yeah. You can always ask me any questions on Instagram. I'm pretty good at. I'm good at responding, just not in time. It's, it's Kilo, k i l o l s. And then you can follow Barma. At Barma. Yeah, I mean, we're, I'm very open to questions and any inquiries that people ask.
Dude, it's awesome to see, see you just in general and, and to catch up in this kind of format, like we should, we should definitely do a follow up. And it's just awesome to see
you're
Yeah. It was really fun to see like how our career started and then went very different ways from what we envisioned ourselves at this time. Right.
And we're both like trying to make our own impact, I think, in, in our own way. And I think that that's probably the most interesting thing. As you and I, before the mics turned on, we were talking about like the people who we know that we're cooking and then all of a sudden just aren't. And it's not to talk bad about them in any way, shape, or form.
I think career transition is fine. I just think that. I look at you as, I look to you as one of the good ones who like didn't go down, the maniacal chef, just going for the stars type of, you know, like there hasn't been an article about keung. Do you know what I mean? Like that that type of, you know uh, mentality is reassuring and, and it shows to me that the change that we wanna see is possible in a world where I think everybody
Yeah. And I feel like a lot of our friends did leave because they noticed that it was not a good place to be. Yeah.
sustainable.
And like we talked about, you and I almost
And again, it's not
You and I almost quit. You and I almost changed profession so many times. It, even the hardest ones like, like we were pretty young and ambitious, but it still hit us, so it needs to change.
yep, yep. A hundred percent.
Yeah, of course. Thank you for having
It was great to have you on.